Evolution v Creationism

[Askthepizzaguy]

I wasn't arguing against that, and so I probably haven't defined my terms as ATPG suggested. Creationism as I used the word meant that God put people on the earth at some point seperate from the animals, and so we don't have any ape-like ancestors. No need for it to be just 6,000 year ago either, or the other stereotyped young earth creationist stuff.

1. Why is our DNA 98 percent compatible with a chimpanzee? And the evolutionary ancestors of the chimpanzee still related to human DNA to a gradually lessening degree?

2. Why are our bodies covered in hair, why do we have similar blood, brains, bone structure, internal organs, why are we mortal, have animal-like instincts, fears, impulses, etc?

3. Why does the fossil record show modern humans appearing around the same time many of the other genus Homo went extinct?

4. Do you not see the connection between modern man and Neanderthalus?

5. Why did God create all these other species and why are they not mentioned in the Bible?

6. If God created all species without the use of evolution, why are new species evolving constantly, and throughout the billions of years life has been on this planet? Why does it not mention the GRADUAL creation of all species, and why does the Bible get the order of creation all wrong according to all scientific evidence?

Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Seems to be an endorsement of evolution to me. Now, is it really so strange that if God created all creatures this way, he could create man the same way, using basically the same parts and DNA as a chimpanzee? Why are ALL the other species on this planet related to one another through genetics and evolutionary processes, but not human beings, yet that's what the evidence shows?

Why would God choose man to be the only living being not descended from the primordial form of life? Why, if that is so, is he so similar, not unique in size or strength or speed, and so enslaved to his desires, his passions, his fears and prejudices, excepting through education and training to overcome it?

Man existed once as a wild, barbarous, hunting animal without a spoken language or form of laws or religion or philosophy, according to all evidence to date. Man also co-existed with other now extinct examples of the genus Homo, and the spread of Man seems to be the reason they were wiped out. But their fossils exist, and they exist at the same time as Man, and they are even more closely related to Man than the chimpanzee.

But don't take my word for it. Please, check into what science has to say about evolutionary biology, especially where it relates to man, since that seems to be your dispute.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah I always wondered why people used that Genesis verse to say animals don't evolve, doesn't really suggest that at all.

I don't read too much into the DNA similarities. Bananas share 50% of our DNA but we don't consider them to be half human.

Still, I am trying to look into this to try to understand evolution better...

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't read too much into the DNA similarities. Bananas share 50% of our DNA but we don't consider them to be half human.

I'll take that argument and run with it.

What makes them so different, on the cellular level? Since we are multicellular organisms and DNA exists on a cellular level, look at the cells.

They are about 50% of what you'd expect to find in a human cell. Maybe better. See the nucleus, see the ribosomes, see all the same parts... except for that cell wall on top of the cell membrane. And the photosynthetic properties of certain plant cells. So, yes there are differences in morphology; in the extreme. But on the cellular level... they are about 50% of what you'd expect to find in a human, and that explains why 50% of their DNA (as you say) is the same. I'm not sure that's the exact figure.

They aren't half human, they are 100% banana. However, their DNA makes them still part of the family of DNA-based multicellular life forms from Planet Earth. That makes them related to us, however distantly. We eat them... much like other animals eat other things they have a common ancestor with. Birds eat other birds. Mammals eat other mammals. People eat monkey brains. Just because we eat them, that doesn't mean we are so different from them that we are a totally alien life form from a separate family of God's creation. He made us basically the same way, and gave us a little bit more intelligence and so forth, if He was responsible for us being created at all.

Notice how plants evolve. Humans have even created new species and hybrids of plants. They did the same with animals; see the dog and the wolf. We've domesticated animals for thousands of years and just in that frame of time, we've seen new species created by... intelligent design coupled with evolution. Imagine!

But! New species are created all the time through random chance and natural selection. Look at bacteria, viruses, and new adaptations of plants and animals since humans started altering the environment, temperature, and acidity levels, among other things. That didn't happen by design, it happened through an unrelated event and natural selection. And species mutate rather randomly on their own as well.

Even human beings are known to be born with genetic mutations, as we call it. Imagine how the various "races" of human came to be... men from africa moved to the north, gained more body hair, and lost their melanin, and survived much better under those conditions. We weren't always white, you know. Others gained even darker skin and lost more of their body hair. They adapted better to those conditions. Some developed fatty deposits around their eyes, others developed in certain other ways. But we are still human beings and to me there's no difference between black and white skin or blonde or black hair, curly or straight. We're all in the family of man, the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

If human beings went to different isolated planets and procreated, eventually you'd end up with different species. Notice the larger difference between Caucasian DNA and Native American DNA than say, others. Those genetic pools were isolated from one another and didn't intermarry. Had this gone on for millions of years, enough differences might have made us incompatible to mate with one another, much like various species of birds once started as one species and then morphed through adaptations and natural selection into several different kinds which can no longer even physically mate with one another due to behavioral patterns, isolation, or different morphologies. It's all well documented and observable, repeating phenomena, which human beings are not immune or excluded from. We've been changing since we arrived here. You look much different from your ancestor of just 200 years or 1000 years ago... very different in terms of skeletal structure. People are taller now, for example, ever so slightly. That trait has been naturally selected for, and even today, shorter people have more difficulty finding mates than taller people.

women typically describe their ideal man as "tall, dark, and handsome". Some describe it in other ways, but short is not typically the ideal trait, and it is therefore not selected for. As such, over time, the species is getting progressively taller. Other traits, like native american ancestry, are being slowly diluted into the rest of the population, and they aren't procreating at the same rate as others. The bottom line is that down the road, the human race will be taller, darker skinned, and more homogenous. You can basically kiss being "white" goodbye. I'm white and I say good riddance... it's fun being unique but I prefer racial inequality and divisiveness to go away. By the time it happens, everyone who once thought about racial pride will be long, long, long dead, and no one alive at the time will even consider race to be a factor. They might notice some slightly darker or lighter skin, but since we will all be a shade of mocha, it's not going to bother them that much. African Americans have an increasing amount of white in them, as well as other races. And white people are increasingly procreating with hispanic, asian, and african people. Eventually we will be one big happy family. It will take more time in racially intolerant and homogenous cultures, however the path towards ending racial prejudice and intolerance is one we will always walk, in an inexorable evolutionary path towards a united homo sapiens sapiens "race".

And then, we will colonize other planets and there actually will be differences again. There might be such a thing one day as "Martian DNA" or "Jupiter's Moon DNA" or human DNA in other star systems. Provided we overcome our intolerance and ignorance of one another, I'd say that could potentially be a good thing, as it would ensure the survival of mankind for a long time, hopefully.

And... I think I've derailed myself quite fully now. Righting the train...

DNA is an impressive design, or a very impressive spontaneous accident. Whatever it is, you share it with a Banana. You're not completely dissimilar, therefore, to a banana. You're also made out of the same stuff, carbon, as Diamonds. So, "shine on, you crazy diamond", seeing as you're also atomically related to Diamonds, and made of the same matter as the rest of the twinkling lights in the heavens.

You're a child of the stars themselves. I think that's pretty spiritual, myself. And if God did create all this, it's very beautiful. But it does appear that he used evolutionary processes and at least something SIMILAR to the Big Bang to accomplish it. Why would he make it appear otherwise? A test of faith? Why put dinosaurs in the ground, etc, create them and then destroy them? What's the point?

He either used evolution, or he makes mistakes. The second one seems to be in direct contradiction of everything you've been taught about him, so I would go with the first option.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Once again I didn't say evolution has/does not happen, maybe we humans just had a different starting point is all.

It's not surprising our bodies share so much DNA with bananas, its the building block of all life. But then, I like to think there is something which humans have that a banana does not... some kind of soul/consciousness. If we don't, we are really just biological robots.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Once again I didn't say evolution has/does not happen, maybe we humans just had a different starting point is all.

It's not surprising our bodies share so much DNA with bananas, its the building block of all life. But then, I like to think there is something which humans have that a banana does not... some kind of soul/consciousness. If we don't, we are really just biological robots.

We are biological robots...but not "just" biological robots.

[Rhyfelwyr]

We are biological robots...but not "just" biological robots.

What do you mean?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What do you mean?

Soul implies that there is some part of us separate from our biological body and mind--but that's a problematic claim. But, we are more conscious that any other animal, so I wouldn't say "just".

[Askthepizzaguy]

Once again I didn't say evolution has/does not happen, maybe we humans just had a different starting point is all.

Okay, but where, and why a different starting point? Is it because of the Bible, or because of the idea of being related to other life forms on this planet is somehow distasteful? It's not 100% proven, so you can believe what you like. But why, I ask, do you think humans are special? Other than being intelligent and moral?

I'd argue that a well trained, and well-loved, canine companion is fairly moral, loyal, and intelligent. Dolphins are the same way. There are other, lesser forms of intelligence and morality in this world, and it occurs naturally in animals. Like mothers who instinctively guard their young, in spite of their other instinct to survive. It might be un-intelligent instinct but it's also the morally correct thing to do. Other animals eat their children, and I'm not so sure that's the moral thing to do. And which species survived and became the dominant species? The human being, who is intelligent, moral, and loves their children and does not eat them.

Seems morality is naturally selected for!

It's not surprising our bodies share so much DNA with bananas, its the building block of all life. But then, I like to think there is something which humans have that a banana does not... some kind of soul/consciousness. If we don't, we are really just biological robots.

I'd like to think so too, maybe we do have a spirit form. But in this mortal shell, we are operating "just biological robots" as our mode of transportation and corporeal existence. When we die, the homo sapien that we are dies, not our soul. So isn't that shell... just a biological robot? One that breaks down and stops functioning?

Consider if you have a soul, yes maybe we do. I consider our existence to be very much not confined to our little weak mortal bodies. An everlasting soul? I don't know. But I do know our mortal flesh is not divine or godlike, and it is nothing more than an animal. A biological robot, if you will. I command this robot, just as I command my computer to type things. it's just a shell for your consciousness to float around in. When it is gone, you either disappear and get a new one, or your consciousness is gone as well. I'm not sure which, and since I can't stop it from happening, I don't really care. It will happen, then I will find out.

We are biological robots...but not "just" biological robots.

Ah... indeed. I believe that we are something more, I just know not what.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Ah... indeed. I believe that we are something more, I just know not what.

The problem with saying "robots" is that our robots suck

We would be very complex robots...but clearly there is no metaphysical "me" inside my body/mind anywhere making choices. So in that sense we are just robots.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah don't get me wrong our bodies are just biological machines, I would gladly trade mine for an armoured electronic machine with a jet pack and rocket launchers any day.

But I do think there is more to us that just our bodies and brains. Or maybe our brains could be said to be our consciosness/soul. Hmm... any thoughts?

[Kadagar_AV]

Once again I didn't say evolution has/does not happen, maybe we humans just had a different starting point is all.

It's not surprising our bodies share so much DNA with bananas, its the building block of all life. But then, I like to think there is something which humans have that a banana does not... some kind of soul/consciousness. If we don't, we are really just biological robots.

what's so scary about being related to the rest of the world? And exactly what properties does humans have that animals don't?



I have seen a giraffe mother who refused to leave her dead baby. She was aware of the fact it was dead, but she was grieving. She stayed at the body some days after her flock had went on, protecting her dead baby from raptors.

Gorillas has been known to have sex out of love. They even sue the missionary position, looking each other deep in the eyes as they have sex, then stroking and kissing each other before doing it all again...

I'm just curious, what separates us from the animals? Cars?

We have evidence of grief, love, hate, jelousy, valour, bravery and so on from the animal world...

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't understand why people talk about emotion as a human trait that seperates us from animals, to me it just looks like animal instinct at its worst. I'm a bit of a stoic.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I'm just curious, what separates us from the animals? Cars?

Well, do animals have cars?

[Kadagar_AV]

Well, do animals have cars?

Sooo... cars is what dictates we have a soul and animals dont? Or what do you mean?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, do animals have cars?

I'm fairly sure I've seen a chimp driving an automobile in a movie. Heck, they even recently went into space, long after it happened in real life. Hollywood gives chimps their wheels so they can cruise the zoos and pick up chimpcks, and lets them blast into space so they can find intelligent life somewhere in this universe.

We would be very complex robots...but clearly there is no metaphysical "me" inside my body/mind anywhere making choices. So in that sense we are just robots.

Biological robots... hmmm...

I think it would be very difficult for science to replicate using a robot machine the biological processes of a cell. So far we can do all kinds of surgery with a DNA strand, but we certainly can't create a cell out of chemicals that are just lying around without using other cells.

If we can't reproduce the cell on our own, I think we've got a VERY long way to go in creating a robot as complex as human beings. And if we did... we would be in one sense nearly as powerful as a God. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I don't like some of the things we are trying with cloning, for example. As soon as cloning starts happening for humans I'm seriously going to fight for legal protections for them.

[InsaneApache]

Sums it up for me.

[Lemur]

Well, do animals have cars?

Yes, but they're not happy about it.