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Thread: Evolution v Creationism

  1. #181
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Seamus Fermanagh, Oh, so now "God" created the Big Bang, huh?

    I hope you were sarcastic in that post.

    . . .

    May I ask you, when WILL the church wave the white flag? Say we get scientifical answer to the big bang, will you have some other outpost to hide behind?

    . . .

    Where is your next retreat?

    "Ok, so science explained everything beyond the big bang, but still hasn't explored all dimensions. God is in one of these dimensions, I ASSURE YOU!".
    I can't speak for Seamus, but personally I think this line of argument is irrelevant. Retreating to a 'God of the Gaps' mentality is silly, but the argument that it's either God or science is a false dilemma. In my personal belief, God is responsible for the creation of everything in the universe. Science is a vessel to better understand his methods and perhaps learn something transcendent in the process.

    Did God create the universe? Sure. How? Well, let's study it and find out. Looks like it may have been through some kind of 'Big Bang.' Did God create humans? Sure. How? Well, let's study life and find out. Looks like it may have been through divergent evolution, probably powered by natural selection. Etc.

    A person can choose to believe in God (any variety), or not to believe. That's a matter of faith, to be neither proved or disproven by scientific inquiry. Regardless of their faith, however, science is still the place to turn for explanations about the natural world. (edit: after all, revelation is filtered through all sorts of fallible humans. The natural world is created directly by God, the Bible only indirectly. I'll put my trust in the primary source, and look to the secondary sources for interpretation and opinion, as in any manner of study)
    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
    the criticism is not with people who make the Bible adhere to science, it's people who make science adhere to the Bible.
    Unfortunately, as you point out, religious people are even more prone to the above false dilemma than nonreligious types.

    Ajax
    Last edited by ajaxfetish; 05-05-2009 at 23:18.

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  2. #182

    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    The key is to not be Christian, but to be Christ-like.

  3. #183
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Che Roriniho View Post
    The key is to not be Christian, but to be Christ-like.
    And these are mutually exclusive?

    Ajax

    "I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
    "I have no words, my voice is in my sword." --- Shakespeare
    "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." --- Jack Handey

  4. #184

    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by ajaxfetish View Post
    And these are mutually exclusive?

    Ajax
    Often, they are.

  5. #185
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Che Roriniho View Post
    Often, they are.
    The key is to not be a banker, but to be honest. Because, . . . often bankers are dishonest.

    Couldn't that be simplified to the key is to be honest? Even if you are a banker?

    Ajax

    "I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
    "I have no words, my voice is in my sword." --- Shakespeare
    "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." --- Jack Handey

  6. #186
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by ajaxfetish View Post
    I can't speak for Seamus, but personally I think this line of argument is irrelevant. Retreating to a 'God of the Gaps' mentality is silly, but the argument that it's either God or science is a false dilemma. In my personal belief, God is responsible for the creation of everything in the universe. Science is a vessel to better understand his methods and perhaps learn something transcendent in the process.

    Did God create the universe? Sure. How? Well, let's study it and find out. Looks like it may have been through some kind of 'Big Bang.' Did God create humans? Sure. How? Well, let's study life and find out. Looks like it may have been through divergent evolution, probably powered by natural selection. Etc.

    A person can choose to believe in God (any variety), or not to believe. That's a matter of faith, to be neither proved or disproven by scientific inquiry. Regardless of their faith, however, science is still the place to turn for explanations about the natural world. (edit: after all, revelation is filtered through all sorts of fallible humans. The natural world is created directly by God, the Bible only indirectly. I'll put my trust in the primary source, and look to the secondary sources for interpretation and opinion, as in any manner of study)

    Unfortunately, as you point out, religious people are even more prone to the above false dilemma than nonreligious types.

    Ajax


    Good post.
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  7. #187
    Useless Member Member Fixiwee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    I'm not so sure if people can choose what they belive in. Schopenhauers free will and all...

  8. #188
    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Che Roriniho View Post
    Often, they are.
    In order for two "things" to be mutually exclusive, it must mean that one absolutely cannot ever happen if the other does. Thus, it is literally impossible for two objects to be "often" mutually exclusive.
    Last edited by seireikhaan; 05-06-2009 at 03:54.
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  9. #189
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Special is a vague word. Restaurants have specials.

    You're questioning the anthropocentric view, yes? Rather than asking about the differences between people and animals your asking what the significance of the differences is?
    Yes. I don't deny that we are more intelligent than animals one average, but I won't say that this difference is enough to say that humanity is somehow special compared to the rest of the living beings on earth.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  10. #190
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Well... I guess one has to define intelligence...

    We live in small appartments, wage war on each other and develop nukes...

    Dolphins swim around in the ocean and have fun...

    How do you know they are not questioning our intelligence?

  11. #191
    Useless Member Member Fixiwee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBQRy0aV3P4


    edit: be aware of foul language, you 13 year old kids on this board.
    Last edited by Fixiwee; 05-09-2009 at 11:03.

  12. #192

    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Yes. I don't deny that we are more intelligent than animals one average, but I won't say that this difference is enough to say that humanity is somehow special compared to the rest of the living beings on earth.
    I missed this post, sorry. Without humans there is no "special"; it's a human concept. I feel like this is the line of thinking that leads to radical environmentalism and the animal rights movement. You can't say the earth would be better without humans, because without humans there is no "better".

  13. #193
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    I missed this post, sorry. Without humans there is no "special"; it's a human concept. I feel like this is the line of thinking that leads to radical environmentalism and the animal rights movement. You can't say the earth would be better without humans, because without humans there is no "better".
    Your point is that animals are unable to think, or to define things as "good and bad" or "better and worse"?

    It would be interesting to see you back that up with a fact or two.

  14. #194

    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Just saw this:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124235632936122739.html

    In what could prove to be a landmark discovery, a leading paleontologist said scientists have dug up the 47 million-year-old fossil of an ancient primate whose features suggest it could be the common ancestor of all later monkeys, apes and humans.

    Anthropologists have long believed that humans evolved from ancient ape-like ancestors. Some 50 million years ago, two ape-like groups walked the Earth. One is known as the tarsidae, a precursor of the tarsier, a tiny, large-eyed creature that lives in Asia. Another group is known as the adapidae, a precursor of today's lemurs in Madagascar.

    Based on previously limited fossil evidence, one big debate had been whether the tarsidae or adapidae group gave rise to monkeys, apes and humans. The latest discovery bolsters the less common position that our ancient ape-like ancestor was an adapid, the believed precursor of lemurs.

    A fossil discovery suggests humans may be descended from an animal that resembles present-day lemurs like this one.
    Philip Gingerich, president-elect of the Paleontological Society in the U.S., has co-written a paper that will detail next week the latest fossil discovery in Public Library of Science, a peer-reviewed, online journal.

    "This discovery brings a forgotten group into focus as a possible ancestor of higher primates," Mr. Gingerich, a professor of paleontology at the University of Michigan, said in an interview.

    The discovery has little bearing on a separate paleontological debate centering on the identity of a common ancestor of chimps and humans, which could have lived about six million years ago and still hasn't been found. That gap in the evolution story is colloquially referred to as the "missing link" controversy. In reality, though, all gaps in the fossil record are technically "missing links" until filled in, and many scientists say the term is meaningless.

    Nonetheless, the latest fossil find is likely to ignite further the debate between evolutionists who draw conclusions based on a limited fossil record, and creationists who don't believe that humans, monkeys and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

    Scientists won't necessarily agree about the details either. "Lemur advocates will be delighted, but tarsier advocates will be underwhelmed" by the new evidence, says Tim White, a paleontologist at the University of California, Berkeley. "The debate will persist."

    The skeleton will be unveiled at New York City's American Museum of Natural History next Tuesday by Mayor Michael Bloomberg and an international team involved in the discovery.

    According to Prof. Gingerich, the fossilized remains are of a young female adapid. The skeleton was unearthed by collectors about two years ago and has been kept tightly under wraps since then, in an unusual feat of scientific secrecy.

    Prof. Gingerich said he had twice examined the adapid skeleton, which was "a complete, spectacular fossil." The completeness of the preserved skeleton is crucial, because most previously found fossils of ancient primates were small finds, such as teeth and jawbones.

    It was found in the Messel Shale Pit, a disused quarry near Frankfurt, Germany. The pit has long been a World Heritage Site and is the source of a number of well-preserved fossils from the middle Eocene epoch, some 50 million years ago.

    Prof. Gingerich said several scientists, including Jorn Hurum of Norway's National History Museum, had inspected the fossil with computer tomography scanning, a sophisticated X-ray technique that can provide detailed, cross-sectional views. Dr. Hurum declined to comment.

    Although the creature looks like a lemur, there are some distinctive physical differences. Lemurs have a tooth comb (a tooth modified to help groom fur); a grooming claw; and a wet nose. Dr. Gingerich said that the adapid skeleton has neither a grooming claw nor a tooth comb. "We can't say whether it had a wet nose or not," he noted.

    Since the fossilized creature found in Germany didn't have features like a tooth comb or grooming claw, it could be argued that it gave rise to monkeys, apes and humans, which don't have these features either.

  15. #195
    Useless Member Member Fixiwee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Lemur. Why did you never tell me? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! *falls of the cliff*

  16. #196
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    I think Lemur needs to be informed that he's our daddy. Someone forward him the link.
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  17. #197
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    So the hierarchical trees need to be adjusted again like so many times before.
    Does this prove that humans descended from monkeys? No it doesn't. This is the problem with this theory. Yes there have been found countless remains of hominid creatures that are very similar looking to humans. The fact that they are similar or appear logically connected does not prove that one is ancestor to the other. Similarity does not prove decent.
    If so we could conclude that a '92 Volvo 240 descended from the '75 Volvo 144.
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  18. #198
    Useless Member Member Fixiwee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    But it doesn't prove it to be wrong either.

  19. #199
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    So the hierarchical trees need to be adjusted again like so many times before.
    Does this prove that humans descended from monkeys? No it doesn't. This is the problem with this theory. Yes there have been found countless remains of hominid creatures that are very similar looking to humans. The fact that they are similar or appear logically connected does not prove that one is ancestor to the other. Similarity does not prove decent.
    If so we could conclude that a '92 Volvo 240 descended from the '75 Volvo 144.
    But one can conclude that a 92 Volvo and the 75 Volvo both come from the same original design; an vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine. Without the one, you could not have the other two. We can conclude that all domesticated dogs came from the same root animal, the wolf. We can conclude that all bunny rabbits came from the same common ancestor rabbit. We can conclude that many different mutations of a virus came from the same strand.

    My question is; if one is to be called a scientist, or if one is to enter into a scientific discussion, one has to agree that it is possible that the theory is correct. And, if one were to be impartial, one would understand that there is overwhelming evidence that this theory is closer to being the truth than all other theories, especially ones with little or no scientific basis.

    While the theory isn't 100% proven, it is a valid theory, and there is no reason to simply disbelieve it because it isn't 100% proven. Most scientific theories aren't 100% by such standards of proof. But to just dismiss it as unproven and therefore unreasonable is wrong. We will make no scientific progress if we simply brush aside mountains of evidence and reasonable conclusions as being wrong because it doesn't necessarily lead to those conclusions... what other conclusions could it lead to?

    If new species don't evolve from older ones, then why have there been multiple mass extinctions, yet there's an extreme diversity of life on this planet? Why do species die out at a rate of hundreds or thousands per year, yet there are still millions of differing species on this planet? Why do we detect new species all the time, and how have we ourselves created new species using various natural methods?

    Why do new species appear at times in the fossil record? Where did they come from? Why did they suddenly appear and disappear? If they were all "created" at once, where did the new ones come from and why did it take so long for them to get here?

    Why did human beings only arrive in the fossil record recently? Why do they look very similar to many other forms of hominids? Why do they resemble various species on this planet genetically and physically in a pattern which matches the arrival of those species in the fossil record, according to present theories of evolution? How do we explain all of those coincidences if we are to assume that creatures do not evolve or that humans have not?

    There is no other scientific explanation that I can see. We weren't beamed here by aliens, or at least there is zero evidence of that, and we are not significantly different in terms of biology from other animals, and we are part of nature and part of the fossil record as well.

    If one is to seriously challenge this theory, one must bring more to the table than mere skepticism and/or religious texts. There needs to be contrary theories based in science, and right now, there aren't any. Until then, perhaps we should consider this our best working theory.
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    So the hierarchical trees need to be adjusted again like so many times before.
    Does this prove that humans descended from monkeys? No it doesn't. This is the problem with this theory. Yes there have been found countless remains of hominid creatures that are very similar looking to humans. The fact that they are similar or appear logically connected does not prove that one is ancestor to the other. Similarity does not prove decent.
    If so we could conclude that a '92 Volvo 240 descended from the '75 Volvo 144.
    You have one massive problem with that position. DNA.

    Since extant primates share substantial DNA, one can track the branching very easily. Thus creatures that have similar skeletal structures in the fossil record can be fitted quite neatly into a taxonomy.

    This may not be proof in the mathematical sense, but it is a huge weight of evidence - evidence that no other theory comes close to explaining. Again, few dispute this clear taxonomic relationship when it applies to bivalves, but get terribly wound up when it comes to hominid ancestry.

    BTW chaps, Lemur is not the daddy. Adapids are clearly not lemurs, which is why they are so exciting. (Not to say that prosimians are unexciting, but in a different way).
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 05-19-2009 at 12:39.
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  21. #201
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    The DNA evidence is a stretch.
    How do you tell one descended from the other? The can't even tell if Neanderthals is the forefather of humans because the DNA evidence is ambiguous. They can't tell if The Neanderthals, our supposedly closest ancestor is related to us or is a completely different species

    As to my Volvo analogy, it should be clear that cars don't reproduce. That was the whole point.
    BTW, I do not offer any alternative theory. I am just stating the problem with hominid descent theory trough putting bones from different strata into hierarchy trees and conclude that this one is a descendent from that one. Similarities do not equate decent.
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  22. #202
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    The DNA evidence is a stretch.
    How do you tell one descended from the other? The can't even tell if Neanderthals is the forefather of humans because the DNA evidence is ambiguous. They can't tell if The Neanderthals, our supposedly closest ancestor is related to us or is a completely different species
    The debate about Neanderthals is whether it should be Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. It is really just details as to when the split happened because either way we share a common ancestor.


    CBR
    Last edited by CBR; 05-19-2009 at 16:21.

  23. #203

    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    the 47 million-year-old fossil
    Well there you go , its obviously another hoax by the so called "scientists" .
    Everyone knows the world was only created 6000 years ago on a tuesday afternoon and fossils like this are a result of the big flood 4400 years ago .

  24. #204
    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    The debate about Neanderthals is whether it should be Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. It is really just details as to when the split happened because either way we share a common ancestor.


    CBR
    There you go - and what is the current status in this debate? And we have DNA samples of this common ancestor which proves that both Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens are descendants of this common ancestor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Well there you go , its obviously another hoax by the so called "scientists" .
    Everyone knows the world was only created 6000 years ago on a tuesday afternoon and fossils like this are a result of the big flood 4400 years ago .
    The Creationists can't deny the fact that there are fossils in the stratas of this earth. IF most of the creatures including dinosaurs and evil men died in the great deluge, it would follow natually that their bones would be found in the same strata. Is this so?
    And the Bible does not really support any of what the young earth creationists have to say about the matter anyway.

    I could postulate that God created the earth and withdrew Deist style and then let the clockwork earth run its due. Multimillion years later he revisits and finds mr. and ms homo sapien evolved from life in clay and blows spirits into their frames. I could do this and back it up with scriptures from the KJV Bible.
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  25. #205
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Well I agree you don't have to believe the earth is just 6,000 years, I don't believe that anyway. But it is stretching it to say God created us through evolution. IMO God created quite a lot of people out of dust/whatever and Adam was the patriarch of them.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  26. #206
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    But it is stretching it to say God created us through evolution.

    Why ?

    I assume your argument is along religious lines as you admitted yourn not to hot on the science of evolution...

    What is there in the bible that paticularly rules out evolution, that is if you interpret it a certain way (because its all about interpretation right ?) could Gods creation of man not been an event spanning millions of years, with God being somewhat an entity outside our universe time means nothing to him...

    Couldn't it come under the 'God works in mysterious ways' such as breaking someones x box so they'll spend time with friends and family for example ?
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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Yeah when I said that I was, of course, meaning from a Biblical perspective. I try not to make "private interpretations" of the scripture as it warns me against, instead when it put things bluntly I accept it.

    Also, I don't think God works in mysterious ways. My take on it all is very straight-forward and kind of morbid as some people say but hey.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  28. #208
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    The DNA evidence is a stretch.
    The Bible is a bigger stretch.

    Radiocarbon technique allows dating back to 45.000 years ago, which should put a definite lid on the 6000 years old earth crap.

    As for DNA: it proves kinship between species, not descendance. DNA specimens prove that the dodo was a close cousin of the pigeon, not that the dodo was the pigeon's predecessor or that the dodo and the pigeon have a common ancestor. DNA also proves that humans are related more closely to chimps than to mice, even though we share about 95% of our genome with both species - the difference being in the kinds of genes we share with either.

    Hence phylogenetic trees do not flawlessly represent species evolution. However, other forms of tracing and sequencing (proteins, molecules, morphology, physiology) plus dating methods like radiocarbon have enabled scientists to come up with more a than tentative picture of historic speciation. New research (such as the recent massive sequencing of bird dna across a large range of bird species) constantly produces new insights on phylogenetics. Even so, every phylogenetic tree remains a hypothesis. That's how science works.

    Do you have a better hypothesis? Bring it on.

    For reference, I point the honourable gentleman from Norway (whose independent thinking I have always respected and welcomed) to a brilliant essay by Stephen Jay Gould. One quote deserves to be highlighted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Jay Gould
    Evolution lies exposed in the imperfections that record a history of descent. Why should a rat run, a bat fly, a porpoise swim, and I type this essay with structures built of the same bones unless we all inherited them from a common ancestor? An engineer, starting from scratch, could design better limbs in each case. Why should all the large native mammals of Australia be marsupials, unless they descended from a common ancestor isolated on this island continent? Marsupials are not "better," or ideally suited for Australia; many have been wiped out by placental mammals imported by man from other continents. This principle of imperfection extends to all historical sciences. When we recognize the etymology of September, October, November, and December (seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth), we know that the year once started in March, or that two additional months must have been added to an original calendar of ten months.

    The third argument is more direct: transitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not common—and should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim. The lower jaw of reptiles contains several bones, that of mammals only one. The non-mammalian jawbones are reduced, step by step, in mammalian ancestors until they become tiny nubbins located at the back of the jaw. The "hammer" and "anvil" bones of the mammalian ear are descendants of these nubbins. How could such a transition be accomplished? the creationists ask. Surely a bone is either entirely in the jaw or in the ear. Yet paleontologists have discovered two transitional lineages of therapsids (the so-called mammal-like reptiles) with a double jaw joint—one composed of the old quadrate and articular bones (soon to become the hammer and anvil), the other of the squamosal and dentary bones (as in modern mammals). For that matter, what better transitional form could we expect to find than the oldest human, Australopithecus afarensis, with its apelike palate, its human upright stance, and a cranial capacity larger than any ape’s of the same body size but a full 1,000 cubic centimeters below ours? If God made each of the half-dozen human species discovered in ancient rocks, why did he create in an unbroken temporal sequence of progressively more modern features—increasing cranial capacity, reduced face and teeth, larger body size? Did he create to mimic evolution and test our faith thereby?
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  29. #209
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    Fellows, it's clearly obvious we were poofed into existence from the massively hot breath of the Fire-Breathing Leprechaun, lucky be thy name. IMO we were fashioned together out of horseshoes and rabbits feet and four-leaf clovers. Then the Magic Box closed and we can no longer see the Fire-Breathing Leprechaun. However, he placed a symbol in the sky to remind us of our true origins: The Rainbow. It is said that at the end of the Rainbow, you will find the Pot 'O Gold and become rich beyond mortal dreams. It's clear that the Fire-Breathing Leprechaun created two people, and only two people, who then had a bunch of sons. Those sons then reproduced with what I assume to be unicorns, because there were no women besides their mother. And that is why men have a prominent "unicorn" below their stomach. My guess is that the women were just unlucky and theirs fell off somehow. Probably from kissing the Blarney stone.

    I present this as the "Lucky Design" theory, as an alternative to Intelligent Design and Evolution.

    However, beyond the physical evidence of the Rainbow, the Clover, the Horseshoe, and Rabbits, not to mention gold and blarney stones, there's no scientific basis for this theory, and I readily admit it is far, far more of a stretch to conclude that everyone was created by a divine being in a supernatural method which directly contradicts fossil and DNA evidence, and using a family tree which could only result in incestuous couplings and severe birth deformities and infertility, involving imaginary women.

    Have a pint anyway. Surely there is room enough for our personal religious views AND science in this world, but we have to admit, they are based upon different ideas: One is the idea that we know something we cannot possibly know except "with our hearts", and the other is the idea that we don't really know anything, but we have strong evidence which leads to some fairly reliable conclusions. The two ideas do not mix and cannot be compared to one another, otherwise some fairly ridiculous notions can be associated falsely with science, such as the idea that some ethnicities are not human beings because they look slightly different from us, and we know this because we looked at them and saw a slight difference and so therefore they aren't human beings.

    As sad as that theory is, it's very similar to the idea that human beings are completely disassociated with the animal kingdom, because we are more intelligent. Nevermind our biological processes are nearly identical, we share almost identical DNA with a very small margin of difference, in our embryonic state we develop almost exactly the same way as other vertebrates, our fossils appeared in the record millions of years ago along with many others, the fact that we are born and then we die... in other words, virtually identical in every way to the nearest primate, but some believe we were given different, exclusive to human-beings, otherworldly supernatural origins poofed out of dust, rather than evolving like all other species have done, in spite of a lack of supportive evidence and physics that doesn't involve what amounts to magic.
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

  30. #210
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Evolution v Creationism

    By the way, Adrian II, your signature is offensive to me. It shows that Mohammed had two left feet, when it is patently obvious he was an awesome dancer.
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

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