Evolution v Creationism

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I simply asked the question: "Why does scientificly gained knowledge refute the existence of God?"

Edit: oops posted early

I don't think anyone has tried to make the case it does, whatever we discover from here till the end of time cannot rule out a god* what science does do occasionally is rule out widely held beliefs in certain religions by proving them wrong, this isn't a tragedy usually as you can interpret your way out of most corners to make religious teachings fit what we now know...

I suppose if we had some kind of time travelling device we could rule out the existence of certain religions (assuming they were wrong) but a god with no set things which we can say he did if he existed could exsist regardless of our knowledge


*Unless maybe we become some kind of ascended beings... but that sounds a little sci fi anyway....

From what I have read, "Six day Creationsim" was the lunatic fringe before Jesus was born, people were not stupid back then, and they knew their history went back almost as long as the Bible, leaving little time for the Great Flood and the Garden. They also understood about inbreeding, and could see that Adam and Eve were not a very deep gene-pool. Further, they could see the inconsistancies and downright errors in the Scripture for themselves. Augustine complained that the Bible was unsure of Joseph's father, and couldn't agree on the date of Jesus' birth. Philo in the 1st Century AD recognised that Chapter 1&2 of Genesis contradict each other.

Nevertheless, Che, among others here, seems to think that because bits of the story don't fit it must therefore all be rubbish. This was what I objected to and why I entered the debate.

[Veho Nex]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"The only definitive place that god exist, is in the human mind" (A guy from the 1700's, even after a google search I still cannot find his name)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A great question, but it assumes the priest was right in order for there to be a problem.

[Tribesman]

Or maybe I just made that up

In keeping with what you have written in this topic eh ?

[Rhyfelwyr]

In keeping with what you have written in this topic eh ?

So where did I misunderstand the scripture then. I mean, you tell me I haven't read the Bible because you disagree with something, so then I show with the first sentence in the Bible you are wrong, and then you go back to atheist point of view and just say "you took the book from the Jews lulz".

[Sasaki Kojiro]

"I read about an Eskimo hunter who asked the local missionary priest,
'if I did not know what actions were immoral, would I feel guilty?'
'No', said the priest, 'not if you did not know.'
'Then why,' asked the Eskimo, 'did you tell me?'"


...

[LittleGrizzly]

Thanks for that sasaki... so much easier than opening the spoiler....

Can someone define what creationism we are actually comparing evolution to ?

No one seems to be arguing for 6-day creationism, If we are just talking evolution with a creator at the start i don't really see the need for a different name... we don't have gravity and godity, godity being the effects of gravity but put in place by god...

[Sigurd]

Thanks for that sasaki... so much easier than opening the spoiler....
Can someone define what creationism we are actually comparing evolution to ?

There is creationism and then there is Creationism. I believe we are discussing Creationism which is the fundamentalists with a political agenda and has invented Creation-science. They are pushing it into school boards and courts trying to get their religious views into textbooks and teaching materials, even into science classes.
Their literal interpretation of the Bible is used as basis for their weird ideas, dismissals of scientific discoveries and instead appeal to "magic" as answers.
They should not be confused with creationists which are normal people of faith that do not know how God created the world, but believe He was the cause of all.

[Tribesman]

so then I show with the first sentence in the Bible you are wrong,

Read your bloody bible , open it on page one and read it , don't give some evangelical text from the late 1st/early 2nd century and call it the first sentance. If you do want to give the evangelical text then perhaps use one of the other greek meanings rather than the one you used .

then you go back to atheist point of view and just say "you took the book from the Jews lulz".

Atheist view
No I said what you claimed was the first sentance of the bible is not , that first sentence would have to be from an old Jewish book that is commonly known in the Christian world as Genesis not the non-synoptic gospel of John .

Some people who make a big del about being "christian" really make me laugh .
While on the other hand ...good post Strike

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Read your bloody bible , open it on page one and read it , don't give some evangelical text from the late 1st/early 2nd century and call it the first sentance. If you do want to give the evangelical text then perhaps use one of the other greek meanings rather than the one you used .


Atheist view
No I said what you claimed was the first sentance of the bible is not , that first sentence would have to be from an old Jewish book that is commonly known in the Christian world as Genesis not the non-synoptic gospel of John .

Some people who make a big del about being "christian" really make me laugh .
While on the other hand ...good post Strike

I'm going to have to come down with Tribes on this one, to be honest Rhy.

I'm still waiting for Adrian to demonstrate my extreme hubris, given that I've only written about 200 words.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't think I'm making the Bible contradict itself.

1. Laws such as the sacrifices you are referring to are not anything to do with morality or good or evil etc. They are specific customs given to a certain people on an ethnic basis as part of their culture, and these are changed to mark the various covenants God makes with ethnic Israel. They are nothing to do with morality, as Jesus tells the Pharisees.

2. I don't see what's wrong with my position on hell not being eternal. We debated this before and I gave you all the scriptures quite plainly stating that people in hell will be destroyed completely, it is the flame that is eternal, perhaps for Satan but otherwise people will not be there for ever. The consequences of hell for a person are eternal, but it does not make sense for hell to be eternal, and the scripture doesn't actually say it is.

3. People come of out nowhere in Genesis, why would they not be mentioned in Adam's bloodline if they are a part of it? We are all said to be descended from Adam because he was the first patriarch. Look for example at how non-ethnic Jews incorporated into Israel are treated as descendents of Jacob and promised a place by Abraham's bosom.

[Adrian II]

I'm still waiting for Adrian to demonstrate my extreme hubris, given that I've only written about 200 words.

I owe you an apology.

I confused you with our friend Rhyfelwyr.

I could blame it on my doddering old age, my professional bias or my recurrent fits of cynicism, but there is simply no valid excuse. I am sorry, Philipvs. Of course I still hate your guts in a roundabout, Backroomish sort of way, but I promise I will ne'er confuse you with the gentleman from Scotland again.

[Strike For The South]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"The only definitive place that god exist, is in the human mind" (A guy from the 1700's, even after a google search I still cannot find his name)

A personal relationship with Jesus is the greatest thing a man can experience.

I don't usually like to enter these debates because my relationship with God is mine and what I do in my personal time is my buisness.

I take the position God has no place in politics, now some would say I am corrupted for simply believing but those people are idoits.

If you truly don't understand why the faithful believe then don't make a snarky quote or .jpg acting like you do. Debate the merits, fight the intolerance, kick and scream when a religon begins to impede on freedom but do not think you can undo thousands of years of faith with two sentences and a cool backdrop. Espacilly when ignorance is the overiding factor in your snarkiness

Edit: Im not attacking you personally Veho but those quotes have as truth as a virgin on promnight