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Thread: Roman Cavalary standard.

  1. #1

    Default Roman Cavalary standard.

    From various sources I've heard that the Draco (you know this Cloth Pipe with a metal Dragon head at the front) was "invented by the romans after a visit to egypt where there were amazed by Crocodiles. now many "barbarian" cavalary units have this standard aswell in EB, obviously preceeving the roman Expansion in Egypt this lets to conclude that the theory about the Crocodiles is incorrect and the romans copied this banner from "the Barbarians".

    So who's right and if the Crocodile stuff is right, why do some cavalary units have "the draco"(I don'T doubt that they had i'm merely interested in the way they come up with it.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    I am 90% sure that the Romans adopted the Draco from Barbarians (in the shirtless with trousers and long hair sense).

    Infact, I believe it originally came from the Sarmatians, or Scythians, or some steppe people.

  3. #3
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenic View Post
    Infact, I believe it originally came from the Sarmatians, or Scythians, or some steppe people.
    I think that Goldsworthy mentioned they copied it from the steppe people, but I haven't got his book with me so I can't give you the reference. What sources did the crocodile theory come from?
    Last edited by Ludens; 04-30-2009 at 18:11.
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  4. #4
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    I read somewhere the steppe peoples originally used it as a windsock so their archers had an easier time estimating how much they had to correct for winds...

    Anyway, AFAIK the Romans didn't adopt it until a fair while after the EB period.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    thank you for the replies, that fits best with my common sence too :D.

    btw just some TV-documentaries.
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
    - Pyrrhus of Epirus

    "Durch diese hohle Gasse muss er kommen..."
    - Leonidas of Sparta

    "People called Romanes they go the House"
    - Alaric the Visigoth

  6. #6
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    Never- ever trust anything you see in a socalled TV-Documentary.

    Trust about half of what you read in books, if several sources says the same (as a simple rule of thumb, real source criticism is something more ;-) ).

    True knowledge is (still) to be found in book, not on TV or online. Eventually the net will have some more profound knowledge on it. There are a few spots of it already, stars shining bright in an utter darkness, but generally. Books is the place to look.
    'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.

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    Member Member delablake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    they were prominent in the crappy movie King Arthur...as seemingly Sarmatian stuff...but I wouldn't go so far as to say it could be accurate
    Yet Brutus says he was ambitious, and Brutus is an honorable man

  8. #8

    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    I know TV is much less accurate than a good history book but tbh I'm not doing real research on roman military, there are enough people to who do to get rather quick access to it :P. However If I did, id would read books and get in contact with archaeologists as there are sufficient specialists on roman history in germany. ;)
    To be perfectly blunt, it was a documentary about The Song of the Nibelungs which claimed that Siegfried is an allusion to Arminius who killed the Roman dragon,...

    King Arthur, oh i musst have missed that bit, got to watch it again some time soon thx.
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
    - Pyrrhus of Epirus

    "Durch diese hohle Gasse muss er kommen..."
    - Leonidas of Sparta

    "People called Romanes they go the House"
    - Alaric the Visigoth

  9. #9
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by delablake View Post
    they were prominent in the crappy movie King Arthur...as seemingly Sarmatian stuff...but I wouldn't go so far as to say it could be accurate
    Well, by the timeframe of that movie the draco was pretty universally used by Roman horse. Plus several other "barbarian" groups too AFAIK.

    One theory regarding the later popularity of St. George I've seen mentioned actually went that this was due to the peasants symbolically associating the dragon he slays in the story with the standard carried by all those armies who ravaged their farms and raped their women...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  10. #10
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Putt View Post
    I know TV is much less accurate than a good history book but tbh I'm not doing real research on roman military, there are enough people to who do to get rather quick access to it :P. However If I did, id would read books and get in contact with archaeologists as there are sufficient specialists on roman history in germany. ;)
    To be perfectly blunt, it was a documentary about The Song of the Nibelungs which claimed that Siegfried is an allusion to Arminius who killed the Roman dragon,...

    King Arthur, oh i musst have missed that bit, got to watch it again some time soon thx.
    I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable about Arminus and thus I was familiar with and have dismissed that theory. It is, I am sorry to say, utter rubbish. It has no basis at all in any sort of evidence that any serious historian will accept.

    But yes, Germany has a great tradition in Roman history scholarship, and history scholarship in general. If you want easily digestible Roman military history though, you could read some Osprey, they do not can be read in an evening and gives more and more accurate info in general than an evening watching TV. Though HBO's Rome is good.
    'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.

    "Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
    Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    i too thought it was a bit silly, and they stated a lot of equally unbased Theories. come to think of it they totally neglected the old norse "original" saga. oh well, but it was fun to watch.

    As i stated before, I don't make researches on roman military, i just prefer a Documentary or movie on this topic over repeats of Talk shows ;) and sometimes I, just got the urge to switch m brain to "off" and watch some TV^^ HBO Rome is a perfect example^^
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
    - Pyrrhus of Epirus

    "Durch diese hohle Gasse muss er kommen..."
    - Leonidas of Sparta

    "People called Romanes they go the House"
    - Alaric the Visigoth

  12. #12
    Member Member Reno Melitensis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    The Draco was first introduced in the Roman Cavalry by Sarmatians during the reign of Mark Aurelius. The Emperor recruited Sarmatians after their defeat along German tribes during the Marcommanic Wars.

    Cheers.


  13. #13
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reno Melitensis View Post
    The Draco was first introduced in the Roman Cavalry by Sarmatians during the reign of Mark Aurelius. The Emperor recruited Sarmatians after their defeat along German tribes during the Marcommanic Wars.
    Pardon me for being sceptical, but is this definite or merely conjecture based on the fact that Marcus Aurelius was the first to introduce large contingents of nomad warriors in his armies?
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    Member Member Yarema's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Cavalary standard.

    As far as i'm concerned the romans adopted the Draco after contacts with Dacians. Draco is a word of dacian origins.




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