post patch econ/cost system: it's fine!

[Eusebius86]

Just started a new game as Austria E/N. Don't laugh at me, I normally play H/H, but wanted to examine the complaints about the "over-agressive" ai to see if it was true on Easy...

Well, even with industustry tech upgrades, and getting buildings that effect wealth, and getting a few trade agreements, and cranking out a few trade ships, I'm only bringing in 5k gold (or whatever its called) a turn. The economic strutcure seems to favor those who blitz, rather than those who build up their industry and trade. I can't afford to build the trade ships I want to every turn, because I'm at war with Poland and Prussia, which means I'm having to use my full income to crank out line infantry every turn. It's very difficult. 1712 and I'm doing good just to keep my own cities and prevent Prussia from expanding beyond their own borders. I have about 2 full stack armies right now, with a couple decent size garrisons in a few strategic cities.

[Slaists]

Just started a new game as Austria E/N. Don't laugh at me, I normally play H/H, but wanted to examine the complaints about the "over-agressive" ai to see if it was true on Easy...

Well, even with industustry tech upgrades, and getting buildings that effect wealth, and getting a few trade agreements, and cranking out a few trade ships, I'm only bringing in 5k gold (or whatever its called) a turn. The economic strutcure seems to favor those who blitz, rather than those who build up their industry and trade. I can't afford to build the trade ships I want to every turn, because I'm at war with Poland and Prussia, which means I'm having to use my full income to crank out line infantry every turn. It's very difficult. 1712 and I'm doing good just to keep my own cities and prevent Prussia from expanding beyond their own borders. I have about 2 full stack armies right now, with a couple decent size garrisons in a few strategic cities.

well, that's how it went for my Brits as well. i was ablet to generate only about 5-7 K gold per turn well into 1720-ies. it did go up very fast from there on.

and, no, the game does not favor blitzers now. the more provinces one has the lower is the tax %: this can be countered by wealth increasing techs and building developments, but those do not become available until quite late in the game. if one blitzes and conquers undeveloped/undevelopable provinces fast, one runs the risk of going into bankruptcy because tax income shrinks...

[seireikhaan]

well, that's how it went for my Brits as well. i was ablet to generate only about 5-7 K gold per turn well into 1720-ies. it did go up very fast from there on.

and, no, the game does not favor blitzers now. the more provinces one has the lower is the tax %: this can be countered by wealth increasing techs and building developments, but those do not become available until quite late in the game. if one blitzes and conquers undeveloped/undevelopable provinces fast, one runs the risk of going into bankruptcy because tax income shrinks...

It favors blitzers because you now have pretty much no choice- someone near you will declare war, and leave you little choice but to exterminate them. As Sweden, I couldn't get a decently developed economy going until I had wiped out the Danes and taken Moscow. Particularly strange are the minor factions- they seem much, much more reluctant to accept peace. As an example, it took me 4 different wars with Russia before I wiped them out- because the Russians had the sense to know a good peace deal when I offered it. The Danes and Courland wouldn't accept peace, ever. Central Europe seems to have the same problem.

Yes, a player is punished for having lots and lots of provinces- the same seems to be true for only having a couple. I could only achieve a strong, suitable peace as Sweden until I had taken out essentially three factions- Courland, Denmark, and Russia(though I took much longer to wipe them out, I left them basically neutered on the Steppes for a while). I call that a blitz.

[Liberator]

The econ/cost system: it's a mess!

The pre patch problem was that you don't have to worry about finance any more once your empire has grown to a certain size. So the best answer would have been to include something like deminishing returns, meaning that every additional factory/farm/tradespot/whatever gives you a little less income than the previous one. Would be quite realistic, anyway

Of course, at the beginning you are always short of cash. But now income is even worse right from the beginning, while the AI is more aggessive.
I'm currently playing Prussia VH/H around 1710. I grabbed Silesia, Saxony and West Prussia, am allied with GB and have trade agreements with Hannover, Bavaria, Gb and the Marathas, so far so good.
But I can hardly pay my troops, I spend more money on replacing units lost in battles against Westfalia and Courland than on anything else. Austria has just grapped Istanbul - I'm not at war with them but they let me look like a beggar.

[andrewt]

It favors blitzers because you now have pretty much no choice- someone near you will declare war, and leave you little choice but to exterminate them. As Sweden, I couldn't get a decently developed economy going until I had wiped out the Danes and taken Moscow. Particularly strange are the minor factions- they seem much, much more reluctant to accept peace. As an example, it took me 4 different wars with Russia before I wiped them out- because the Russians had the sense to know a good peace deal when I offered it. The Danes and Courland wouldn't accept peace, ever. Central Europe seems to have the same problem.

Yes, a player is punished for having lots and lots of provinces- the same seems to be true for only having a couple. I could only achieve a strong, suitable peace as Sweden until I had taken out essentially three factions- Courland, Denmark, and Russia(though I took much longer to wipe them out, I left them basically neutered on the Steppes for a while). I call that a blitz.

It's always that way with CA games. I'm almost convinced it's hard coded that you have to have a certain amount of factions at war with you, depending on the size of your empire. So you're always at war with a certain amount of factions, and if you eliminate any of them, a new one declares war on you. The only way to have "peace", it seems, is to blitz all of the nations at war with you and leave them each with 1 crippled province. Make sure not to make actual peace with them, because that triggers another nation to declare war on you a few turns later.

[anweRU]

I'm playing a new GB campaign from scratch. With about 1 hour per day, I've only made it to turn 8 so far. My income is currently 7k/turn, thanks to the IM spam + trade spot rush. IIRC, this is about where I was at this stage in my pre-patch GB games.

Here are the differences:
- I haven't been able to recruit as many troops as I would have by this stage.
- I have captured only three regions, all three of which are currently tax exempt (Flanders & Hispaniola on turn 2, Trinidad & Tobago on turn 6). Hence, they don't contribute to my income, and are costing me money for the short term.
- I'll give my opinion about the AI elsewhere. However, I would say I can't blitz anymore. By this stage in my previous game, I had captured more regions. Now, I'm constrained both economically & by the increased resistance (13 vs 8) to actually go on a conquest spree.

I might retry a Dutch or Swedish campaign to see how they compare. My pre-patch UP campaign, as my GB campaign, was a blitz. I had too much money on my hands, so I built armies and captured regions. My pre-patch Swedish campaign was more sedate - I tried a more peaceful approach, fighting wars only with those nations whose territories I needed for the victory conditions.

[MikeV]

It's always that way with CA games. I'm almost convinced it's hard coded that you have to have a certain amount of factions at war with you ... Make sure not to make actual peace with them, because that triggers another nation to declare war on you a few turns later.

I've noticed that, as well. Whether it's hard-coded or scripted, after 1 or 2 turns of "peace," some AI-controlled minor will decide it's their turn to commit suicide.

Since there is no working Diplomacy system to speak of, this behavior seems to be it. "What You See Is All You Get."

[Marquis of Roland]

Post patch Prussia Campaign on VH. Compared to pre-patch Prussia, I make considerably less but overall I am happy with the economic changes. I've been turtling in Central Europe, and sent out 2 fleets of IM to West Africa. Your budget is a lot more restricted than before, but definitely manageable for my campaign. For 100 turns I just made do turtling with my two 12-16 unit stacks, and took only Saxony and Silesia. I was simultaneously at war with Poland, Courland, Austria, and Bavaria. I'm glad it wasn't like it was before, where I made so much profit, money and production was actually no longer a game factor.

Haven't tried Spain yet. So it's pretty bad eh?

[JeromeBaker]

The first couple of turns on my Sweden VH/H campgain I was dismayed at the harder economy, but once I got a few more turns under my belt I actually love the changes. I cannot afford the same type of army after patch as I could before patch or as many total. Now I have to really take advantage of terrain, tactics, formations, and manage my battles closely because I cant afford to take huge losses. I also now have more milita and pike in my fighting forces, which makes me utilize the line infantry and other higher end troops to their fullest since I dont have a stack full of just the best available. So far so good, I am doing fine in my campaign and I am loving it. Being able to buy a lot of troops of high quality got boring fast. I am sure there are TW vets who still find it too easy, but for me it is pretty good right now. I also like that the patch made bridges matter again and you can play a multiple stack battle again without people surrounding you at the start. Pre patch I didnt have to pay all that much attention to my ministers, trade partners, and trade zones because I already had more than enough money comming in, now I pay more attention. Of course, I have not finished a campgain since the new patch so I am not sure how the end game will be, but the start and middle get two thumbs up after the latest patch.

[Eusebius86]

well, that's how it went for my Brits as well. i was ablet to generate only about 5-7 K gold per turn well into 1720-ies. it did go up very fast from there on.

and, no, the game does not favor blitzers now. the more provinces one has the lower is the tax %: this can be countered by wealth increasing techs and building developments, but those do not become available until quite late in the game. if one blitzes and conquers undeveloped/undevelopable provinces fast, one runs the risk of going into bankruptcy because tax income shrinks...

Um, the mechanics DO favor blitzing. The ai refuses to make peace for more than 2 turns, which means that you are forced to exterminate your enemies. I reduced Prussia to one territory, and still they would not keep peace. Besides, what would you rather do as Austria, take over East Prussia and rake in 2400 gold a turn, or try to develop trade fleets and pray that no one with a navy blockades you?

Central Europe doesn't have too many undeveloped towns/cities, so blitzing is a favored strategy... I prefer to turtle, but the AI just doesn't know when to call it quits.

[Slaists]

Central Europe doesn't have too many undeveloped towns/cities, so blitzing is a favored strategy... I prefer to turtle, but the AI just doesn't know when to call it quits.

True about Central Europe: and I do not think, any of the Central European powers are meant to be trading powerhouses; I don't think, those factions are meant to be 'turtled' either: just too many enemies around.

As to the AI: true,it does not know when to call quits unless... you turn them into your protectorate ;)