How was ancient Sparta ruled?

[Calypze]

How was ancient Sparta ruled? There seems to have been a dual kingship, yet Sparta is often considered to have been an oligarchy rather than a monarchy. Can someone please clarify?

Did the way Sparta was ruled remain essentially the same, or did it change? For example, was it ruled the same way when they repelled the Persians as during the EB era?

Also, from what I know, there were to social groups, or castes - Spartiates and Helots. Did the Helots have any role in war? Did they only farm, or did they trade as well?

[mosedavid]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_Ruled_Ancient_Sparta

[/Bean\]

Before Bovi gets wind of this:

Google seems to be down a lot lately...

Muhahahahaha! I nicked his favourite saying.

[Phalanx300]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_Constitution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sparta

[antisocialmunky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Butler

Yeah hotlinking!

[Apázlinemjó]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Butler

Yeah hotlinking!

He is the true Leonidas, not just an actor, shame wiki.

[jsadighi]

He is the true Leonidas, not just an actor, shame wiki.

You kidding me? Leonidas would wipe the floor with that pretty boy's arse!

[Apázlinemjó]

You kidding me? Leonidas would wipe the floor with that pretty boy's arse!

I was kiddin'

[antisocialmunky]

I'm surprised that no one cited this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Egan_(actor)

[Phalanx300]

Probably because at least some of us have some respect of ancient Sparta .


Even though I liked that movie .

[Celtic_Punk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Butler

Yeah hotlinking!

why? *shakes head*
anyone who mentions that god awful movie when people are trying to discuss REALITY should be crucified, drawn and quartered.

There were some good parts about how sparta was run during the persian wars and during the pelopenesian wars in my book "The Greeks at War : From Athens to Alexander" by Philip de Souza, Waldemar Heckel, and Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones ISBN 978-1-84176-856-4
check it out, if you are interested in greek warfare you'll enjoy this book. I picked it up at the british museum for around 20 quid.

[Mulceber]

Might want to clarify, Celtic Punk, because you make it sound like you wrote the book you mentioned and, if I'm not mistaken, you aren't saying you wrote it, only that you'd recommend it.

Oh and for the record, I liked 300. Not good when it comes to historical realism, but an entertaining movie that draws attention to Thermopylae. As the old saying goes, there's no such thing as bad publicity. -M

[chenkai11]

The guy post questions and wants it to be discussed, and you just gave him links.

This is a forum.

[Silence Hunter]

This is a forum.

How many gamers does it take to change a lightbulb?

1 to change the lightbulb, and to post that it has been changed.

14 to share similar experiences at changing light bulbs, and how said lightbulb could have been changed differently.

7 to caution about all the possible dangers of changing lightbulbs.

6 to argue over whether it is a "lightbulb" or a "light bulb”, and another 6 to condemn those 6 as being stupid.

2 industry pros to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp".

16 know it alls who claim they are in industry, and that light bulb is perfectly correct.

19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs, and to please take this discussion to a light bulb forum.

11 to defend the posting to this forum, saying that we all use light bulbs ,therefore the post is indeed relevant to this forum.

36 to debate which method of changing lightbulbs is superior, where to buy these bulbs, what brand works best for this technique, and what brands are faulty.

5 people to post pics of their own light bulbs.

15 people to post "I can't see their !@#^%$ light bulbs".

7 people to post URL's where one can see examples of lightbulbs.

4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly, and then post the corrections.

13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety, including all headers and signatures, and add "Me Too".

5 posts to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the lightbulb controversy.

4 to say "didn't we go through this a short time ago?"'

13 to say "do a search on lightbulbs before posting a question on lightbulbs.

1 to bring politics into the discussion, by adding that the current president is not the brightest bulb.

4 more to get into personal attacks over their political views.

1 moderator to lock the light bulb thread.

1 forum lurker to post to the original thread 6 whole months from now, and start it all over

Total: 185

[johnhughthom]

How many gamers does it take to change a lightbulb?

1 to change the lightbulb, and to post that it has been changed.

14 to share similar experiences at changing light bulbs, and how said lightbulb could have been changed differently.

7 to caution about all the possible dangers of changing lightbulbs.

6 to argue over whether it is a "lightbulb" or a "light bulb”, and another 6 to condemn those 6 as being stupid.

2 industry pros to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp".

16 know it alls who claim they are in industry, and that light bulb is perfectly correct.

19 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs, and to please take this discussion to a light bulb forum.

11 to defend the posting to this forum, saying that we all use light bulbs ,therefore the post is indeed relevant to this forum.

36 to debate which method of changing lightbulbs is superior, where to buy these bulbs, what brand works best for this technique, and what brands are faulty.

5 people to post pics of their own light bulbs.

15 people to post "I can't see their !@#^%$ light bulbs".

7 people to post URL's where one can see examples of lightbulbs.

4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly, and then post the corrections.

13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety, including all headers and signatures, and add "Me Too".

5 posts to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the lightbulb controversy.

4 to say "didn't we go through this a short time ago?"'

13 to say "do a search on lightbulbs before posting a question on lightbulbs.

1 to bring politics into the discussion, by adding that the current president is not the brightest bulb.

4 more to get into personal attacks over their political views.

1 moderator to lock the light bulb thread.

1 forum lurker to post to the original thread 6 whole months from now, and start it all over

Total: 185

You forgot the 1 who makes a sarcastic post about the idiocy of forum goers...

[V.T. Marvin]

Excellent post Silence Hunter, it is a deep truth and sadly enough, even I could not help myself and resist from spamming a bit - it is soooo tempting!

f**king hell are you all 20 watt light bulbs this is what i mean

May you be enlighted

Actually the opening posts brought forward a quite interesting question, so let us hope that some of the apparently so numerous Spartan fans will overcome the temptation to spam on and will in fact enlighten us with his/her knowledge.

[/Bean\]

Originally Posted by Abokasee
f**king hell are you all 20 watt light bulbs this is what i mean

Now THAT was a fun thread...

[Maion Maroneios]

How was ancient Sparta ruled? There seems to have been a dual kingship, yet Sparta is often considered to have been an oligarchy rather than a monarchy. Can someone please clarify?

Did the way Sparta was ruled remain essentially the same, or did it change? For example, was it ruled the same way when they repelled the Persians as during the EB era?

Also, from what I know, there were to social groups, or castes - Spartiates and Helots. Did the Helots have any role in war? Did they only farm, or did they trade as well?

1) The dual kingship system of the Spartiatai, does not mean had a dual monarchy. You see, the ones that pulled the strings in reality, were the 5 ephors of Sparte (elected annually, IIRC). So it was really oligarchic instead of a plain monarchy. Also, I believe the purposes of each king was different. One was in charge of the military, the other of the state.

2) Yes, or at least there were no great changes. But you will have to understand the very core of the governship of Lakedaimon. It relied purely upon the Homioi, or Equals. They belonged to the upper class of society, everyone else was below them. They were the ones who participated in the Ekklesia tou Demou (the People's Assembly), albeit after the age of 30 I believe (which was the age when they became official citizens of the state), and they were responsible of protecting their homeland whenever they were called upon by their officials.

The training of the Spartiatai, the Agoge, was harsh. Very harsh. From the age of 7 up to the age of 56, they had to serve their country. In that time, they constantly drilled in the arts of war, plus did many kind of sports and gymnastics/calisthenics and the like. The ones that failed, were stigmatized forever and were denied citizenship. Thus, it can be understood I believe, that after many years of constant warfare, their numbers degenerated with a steady rate. The Spartiatai, being very traditional, did not allow "fresh blood" to attain the Agoge and replenish the numbers of Spartiatai. As such, it is known that at one point in the Hellenistic Era (around the time of EB), the actual Homioi were down from the original number of 9,000, to a mere 700. You understand the magnitude of this, don't you?

Another thing that went very wrong, was the share of property. Lykourgos (the guy who wrote the Spartan laws), had divided the lands of the Spartiatai equally among the Homioi. Each one of them, had a certain amount of Helots to till their lands. They, in turn, had to give a certain amount of the annual harvest to their master, keeping the rest for themselves. That amount was, by the way, a standard and didn't change, so the Helots were motivated to work hard, as to keep as much as they can for themselves. Anyway, the Homioi had to give part of their incomes to the state. This included grain for bread, olives, grapes, wine and the like for the Sissitia, or dining halls were the Homioi gathered to eat alltogether. Now, as the time went by, more and more Homioi were failing the Agoge and other Homioi took their possessions, becoming richer ad richer. So you have this "shift" of property, creating "poor" and "wealthy" citizens, something that didn't exist (in such a great deal) during the Classical Age.

There were people, like Kleomenes, who brought extensive reforms, in a futile attempt to save Sparte from the inevitable. Sure, their work was well-intentioned and aimed to give Sparte back her old, shining glory, but the state was in an advanced state of degeneration. The rich didn't want equality with the poor, wars had cost the Spartiatai loss of most of their former lands plus (at some point) loss of their privileges over the Helots, and of course the small number of the Spartiatai meant that it would be inevitable for Sparte to fall. They didn't walk along with the times, you see. One of the brightest examples of what happens when you don't

3) I believe you can find many things about the social system of the Spartiatai from above. Any additional things would probably be that fact that the Helots did take part in wars. Their numbers were just not that great, because before the Persian Wars it was customary only for the citizen army of a polis to wage war. After the Persian Wars and, most importantly, the Peloponnesian War, the usage of Helots and Perioikoi (those who lived in poleis allied to ad around Sparte herself) became more frequent and extensive. As for trade, from what I know the only ones who bothered were the Perioikoi. Note that Sparte was a closed society, and thus didn't trade much. Plus, their currency had almost zero value compared with, say, an Athenian drachme.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

1) The dual kingship system of the Spartiatai, does not mean had a dual monarchy. You see, the ones that pulled the strings in reality, were the 5 ephors of Sparte (elected annually, IIRC). So it was really oligarchic instead of a plain monarchy. Also, I believe the purposes of each king was different. One was in charge of the military, the other of the state.

The Spartan kings would be chief priests of the state and would be the generals of the army, also things like succesion was taken care of them. But yeah the Ephors had more power then them. Yet the most important things like war or peace was made by the Apella! All Spartan citizens could vote.

2) Yes, or at least there were no great changes. But you will have to understand the very core of the governship of Lakedaimon. It relied purely upon the Homioi, or Equals. They belonged to the upper class of society, everyone else was below them. They were the ones who participated in the Ekklesia tou Demou (the People's Assembly), albeit after the age of 30 I believe (which was the age when they became official citizens of the state), and they were responsible of protecting their homeland whenever they were called upon by their officials.

There is a small difference, the laws of Lycurgus weren't fully followed anymore, in the old times having gold was dispised yet at latter times they showed off their wealth. The Spartans also became more obsessed with ruling then at excelling at their given position.

Basicly if they would have followed the laws of Lycurgus then their golden age would have lasted far longer.

The training of the Spartiatai, the Agoge, was harsh. Very harsh. From the age of 7 up to the age of 56, they had to serve their country. In that time, they constantly drilled in the arts of war, plus did many kind of sports and gymnastics/calisthenics and the like. The ones that failed, were stigmatized forever and were denied citizenship. Thus, it can be understood I believe, that after many years of constant warfare, their numbers degenerated with a steady rate. The Spartiatai, being very traditional, did not allow "fresh blood" to attain the Agoge and replenish the numbers of Spartiatai. As such, it is known that at one point in the Hellenistic Era (around the time of EB), the actual Homioi were down from the original number of 9,000, to a mere 700. You understand the magnitude of this, don't you?

They had to serve from 7 till 60, with them joining the army at the age of 20. But there were Spartan hoplites recorded which were older then 60! Leonidas himself probably was far in his 50s as well.

The main reason of their numbers dropping wasn´t because of so many failing the agoge, it was mainly because those without property couldn´t pay the messes and thus couldn´t be citizens. And only the first borns could get the property.

An earthquake apparently killed many Spartans as well which resulted in Spartan women owning the land and them passing it on to their new husbands and thus creating the rich and poor, which wasn´t what the laws of Lycurgus intended! There aren´t called Equals for nothing.

Another thing that went very wrong, was the share of property. Lykourgos (the guy who wrote the Spartan laws), had divided the lands of the Spartiatai equally among the Homioi. Each one of them, had a certain amount of Helots to till their lands. They, in turn, had to give a certain amount of the annual harvest to their master, keeping the rest for themselves. That amount was, by the way, a standard and didn't change, so the Helots were motivated to work hard, as to keep as much as they can for themselves. Anyway, the Homioi had to give part of their incomes to the state. This included grain for bread, olives, grapes, wine and the like for the Sissitia, or dining halls were the Homioi gathered to eat alltogether. Now, as the time went by, more and more Homioi were failing the Agoge and other Homioi took their possessions, becoming richer ad richer. So you have this "shift" of property, creating "poor" and "wealthy" citizens, something that didn't exist (in such a great deal) during the Classical Age.

Yep.

There were people, like Kleomenes, who brought extensive reforms, in a futile attempt to save Sparte from the inevitable. Sure, their work was well-intentioned and aimed to give Sparte back her old, shining glory, but the state was in an advanced state of degeneration. The rich didn't want equality with the poor, wars had cost the Spartiatai loss of most of their former lands plus (at some point) loss of their privileges over the Helots, and of course the small number of the Spartiatai meant that it would be inevitable for Sparte to fall. They didn't walk along with the times, you see. One of the brightest examples of what happens when you don't

Inevitable is a big word, they simply stopped at certain points to fully follow the laws of Lycurgus. Like not fighting the same enemy in order that they can´t make any counter tactics, which Epidomnonas was able to do at Leuktra.

3) I believe you can find many things about the social system of the Spartiatai from above. Any additional things would probably be that fact that the Helots did take part in wars. Their numbers were just not that great, because before the Persian Wars it was customary only for the citizen army of a polis to wage war. After the Persian Wars and, most importantly, the Peloponnesian War, the usage of Helots and Perioikoi (those who lived in poleis allied to ad around Sparte herself) became more frequent and extensive. As for trade, from what I know the only ones who bothered were the Perioikoi. Note that Sparte was a closed society, and thus didn't trade much. Plus, their currency had almost zero value compared with, say, an Athenian drachme.

There would be at least 1 helot accompanying a Spartiatai in campaign, mainly to do chores but they probably fought as light psiloi as well. At later times and in times of need Helots were liberated after a certain time as a Hoplite to have a bigger fighting force, you could realise that freedom was wanted and many would fight for Sparta. Like when Thebes invaded Lakonia, 2000 Helots rose up to protect Sparta!

[Maion Maroneios]

The Spartan kings would be chief priests of the state and would be the generals of the army, also things like succesion was taken care of them. But yeah the Ephors had more power then them. Yet the most important things like war or peace was made by the Apella! All Spartan citizens could vote.

Right, I don't think we disagree in anything here.

There is a small difference, the laws of Lycurgus weren't fully followed anymore, in the old times having gold was dispised yet at latter times they showed off their wealth. The Spartans also became more obsessed with ruling then at excelling at their given position.

Erhm, that's exactly what I said. The old ways stopped being followed.

Basicly if they would have followed the laws of Lycurgus then their golden age would have lasted far longer.

They had to serve from 7 till 60, with them joining the army at the age of 20. But there were Spartan hoplites recorded which were older then 60! Leonidas himself probably was far in his 50s as well.

Nope, 56 or 60, that's debatable. Though I believe it was officially 56. Hoplitai serving with an age of over 60 is possible, though very, very rare. If you think that the average lifetime of a man at that time was about 40. Leonidas was into his fifties, yes.

The main reason of their numbers dropping wasn´t because of so many failing the agoge, it was mainly because those without property couldn´t pay the messes and thus couldn´t be citizens. And only the first borns could get the property.

I will have to disagree. Not being able to pass the Agoge automatically disqualified you as a Spartan citizen, and thus deprived you of all the privileges of citizenship. Not following the laws of Lykourgos is just something that derived from the fact that there difference between rich and poor was becoming bigger and bigger. Think about it: Less and less property for those that failed to pay the sissitia going to the richer citizens, rich families investing in things other than just war resulting in Sparte becoming more open etc.

An earthquake apparently killed many Spartans as well which resulted in Spartan women owning the land and them passing it on to their new husbands and thus creating the rich and poor, which wasn´t what the laws of Lycurgus intended! There aren´t called Equals for nothing.

The earthquake that killed many Spartiatai was a serious strike, but the fall of Lakedaimon didn't result purely from that incident. It was time that proved fatal in the end. Bit by bit, they destroyed thmselves.

Inevitable is a big word, they simply stopped at certain points to fully follow the laws of Lycurgus. Like not fighting the same enemy in order that they can´t make any counter tactics, which Epidomnonas was able to do at Leuktra.

It's not a big word. Seriously, it's exactly like saying it would be inevitable for Rome to become the leading power. Even if something went wrong, the Universe has its way of "fixing" things. That's Physics, by the way Lykourgos alone wasn't the sole reason behind Sparte's success in the Classical Age. Strictly following his laws wouldn't do them any good for a long period of time either. Time passes, things move. The Spartiatai remained stationary. Over and out.

There would be at least 1 helot accompanying a Spartiatai in campaign, mainly to do chores but they probably fought as light psiloi as well. At later times and in times of need Helots were liberated after a certain time as a Hoplite to have a bigger fighting force, you could realise that freedom was wanted and many would fight for Sparta. Like when Thebes invaded Lakonia, 2000 Helots rose up to protect Sparta!

So?

Maion