Rubicon [Concluded]

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

am no longer sure of AggonyDucks guilt....

Unvote: AggonyDuck, vote: abstain

for now at least.

[pevergreen]

Oh...I'm dead. i was about to catch up on 3 days worth of reading.

i refused a few groups offers of night actions, and i hinted at my role in a post of mine a while back.

you know...with the stabbing. being the third and all.

[Chaotix]

Last night, I investigated splitpersonality, with the help of YLC on my side. I know his faction, although generally it seems we are not disclosing factions in the thread. If you want to know, I can post it.

Also: there is nothing saying that the mafia cannot have fake role pms to cover their backs if they need to reveal. A wealthy senator would fit the description of one of the servants of the tyrants.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Vote:Andres

Smells to much like mafia going for blood after setting up duck in the write up. You should know Andres that several people thought that investigations reveal mafia.

[ULC]

Unvote: Aggony Duck
Vote: Andres

You never once had to go along with it Andres, and I have to agree with Sasaki - it feels to much like a setup, all of it is too convenient, especially when you openly stated you wouldn't investigate and that they were useless. If they are useless, why agree to do them? Duck never once pointed a gun to your head.

[Iskander 3.1]

Vote: Andres

I'd like to hear his defence, of course.

[Andres]

Vote:Andres

Smells to much like mafia going for blood after setting up duck in the write up.

This doesn't make sense.

If I were mafia and I wanted AggonyDuck dead so bad, then I'd just kill him.

You should know Andres that several people thought that investigations reveal mafia.

N1 yes, later no.

Unvote: Aggony Duck
Vote: Andres

You never once had to go along with it Andres, and I have to agree with Sasaki - it feels to much like a setup, all of it is too convenient, especially when you openly stated you wouldn't investigate and that they were useless. If they are useless, why agree to do them? Duck never once pointed a gun to your head.

I did an investigation with Beskar on N1. Beskar was in contact with another duo that also did an investigation. Their result was different than ours.

First, I didn't want to do another investigation, since TinCow stated that they would only reveal information on the faction. Later, I changed my mind, because I was intrigued by the difference in the write-up of the results and we did a second investigation. This had exactly the same wordings as the first one and just told us the faction.

PM traffic with Beskar:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Greetings noble Senator,

As you might know, this is a time of great importance and in this time, it is wise to keep people close, some argue, keep your enemies even closer.

I would like to pledge to you an act of mutual co-operation. This gesture while it is sincere, might startle you, however, I would like, as well as you, to investigate our fellow brothers during the night, to make sure they are not waiting for us with daggers drawn.

I request you respond to this humble plea with an agreement long before the breaking of dawn if you are interested.

Regards.

Ok


It's pretty much random at this stage; AggonyDuck seems like a good choice to me: good player, good analysis skills, a lot of experience and usually doesn't get much attention in the thread.

Investigate AggonyDuck ok for you?

A.

Greetings Senator,

It appears the results do not produce the fruition we would have thought. I am guessing sending servants to inform us that people who dress fancy attend his house for gathering merely told us which faction he supports, opposed to any details of significance.

What is your opinion on the results?

Regards.

Yeah, it's pretty useless. He's an Optimates and that's about it...

I think protecting/killing may prove more useful. Too early to form a vigilante group. We'll need more manpower.

Let's see how the thread develops first; we could form up a protection group next night.

Unless somebody makes a very scummy post and doesn't get lynched...

Investigating seems rather pointless to me.

What say you?

A.

Yeah, it's pretty useless. He's an Optimates and that's about it...

I think protecting/killing may prove more useful. Too early to form a vigilante group. We'll need more manpower.

Let's see how the thread develops first; we could form up a protection group next night.

Unless somebody makes a very scummy post and doesn't get lynched...

Investigating seems rather pointless to me.

What say you?

A.

OOC:

Agreed. I am not at the stage where I would even hunt Optimates/Popularists for the 2nd win condition. Possibly would have killed Caesar/Pompey though.

Look's like Sasaki was right again, he was interested in protection squads, so let's approach him?

Greetings Senator,

As you are aware, I messaged your earlier about an appeal of co-operation and from the replies, I accepted you as you accepted my appeal.

I be honest, I do not care about which faction you are, whether it is the Populares faction or the Optimates faction. I am simply going for the win condition which we will all prosper with.

Victory Conditions:
(1) Eliminate all Caesarians and Pompeians. You will be victorious even if you are dead if this goal is met.

However, from my appeals, I do have a few possible suspects. Nothing concrete, they never are, but responses which seem quite queer.

I have also been contacted by one of the people I appealed to, for trying to organise a vigilante kill tonight. If you are interested in taking part, message me. If not, message me to say so.

Regards.


OOC:
As a sign of trust, I will say the suspicious names from replies I have received, just for further reference such as my departure from the game.

navarro951 - Overly concerned about my faction, wouldn't agree to anything unless stated.
pevergreen - Overly concerned about my faction, wouldn't agree to anything unless stated.
GeneralHankerchief -Dilberately avoided my private message.

Interesting.



In all honesty, I think it's a bit early to go vigilante.



I've been thinking about our recent investigation. Maybe it's worthwhile to do a second investigation, if only to see if it always gives the same result (I'm intrigued by the visitors AggonyDuck apparently received and I'd like to know if other senators get visitors as well). If there are differences between them, then we should do a third. If they're all different, then they are probably useless, but if only one has a slightly different description, then they may be more useful.



You want to investigate one of those on your list?



A.

It is a possibility. The lynch was Sasaki's idea, but I would only endorse a specific lynch if there are grounds to suspect something. Just curious to see who would say yes to the idea or no. Also works down the list to a few I could rely on.

Lynch? You mean vigilante? Sasaki wants to go vigilante this early in the game?

Which target?

Going on a killing spree at night as a townie this early in the game, probably means that Sasaki is going for victory condition (2). It would perfectly fit his character, since he always had a soft spot for the bad guys in these games.

I wouldn't allow him among us.

As a matter of fact, I think it's best not to tell each other which faction you belong to. This could only generate distrust and temptation for backstabbing. Players going for victory condition (1) don't need that information.

Keep in mind that anyone asking about your faction or spontaneously telling you his faction, is suspicious and very likely up to no good (i.e. victory condition (2)).

The reason that I trust you is exactly that: after one night and almost 2/3d of a day, you didn't ask to with faction I belong nor did you tell me your faction

A.

Yes, Sasaki wants to go vigilante this early in the game. He has said of no target.

I dropped people from my list who replied asking for my faction, I also labelled them in the PM when they didn't accept the answer of "Rome and her Senate". Obviously, there must be a reason they are pre-occupied with knowing.

No one has spontaneously told me their faction. I did have some one tell me of a night time investigation. Apparently johnhughthom is a populares.

I think we should go for a vig kill tonight. Someone who is mostly lurking but has an odd post for example. Do you have two other people who would be interested?

Sasaki

He doesn't have a particular target though, it could be simply some one who comes up as very suspicious in the day phase.

If there's a detective and it works the same way as in Capo, then he'll get a guilty on mafia and on everybody who has done a vig kill. Doing a kill as a Senator is the ideal cover for a mafioso to explain a guilty detective result away; it messes up detective investigations.

I still want to go for an investigation, to compare results with the investigation of yesterday.

Did somebody who did an in investigation mention something about visitors coming to the place of the Senator they investigated?

A.

I don't think there is a detective.

I can ask the person who sent me their result.

Possible investigation on Sasaki, or would it be a waste?

I just realised, we got a success. Especially after I got a report of their investigation saying they are going to a party, we got this.

You send your servants off to watch AggonyDuck’s villa. Your men take up position in an alley from which they can watch the main entrance. Foot traffic is low during the night, which makes the arrival of several well-dressed patricians easy to spot. They must be supporters of AggonyDuck, who is clearly an Optimates.

On N3, I wanted to take part in a group to vig kill pevergreen, but they already had sufficient numbers. Then I wanted to protect Ichigo together with Duck and a third person. Apparently, it wasn't necessary for Duck and me to do a protection and Duck kept insisting on doing an investigation. I figured investigation is better than doing nothing at all, so I sent in orders for an investigation with Duck.

Beskar and Sasaki can back this up, as this was what happened behind the scenes.

Now, again, if I were mafia, why would I keep myself busy with townies at night and try to get Duck lynched during the day? I could have easily avoided working with Senators and just kill Duck at night.

Vote: Andres

I'd like to hear his defence, of course.

I can't defend against your vote since you didn't give any reasons for it.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

This doesn't make sense.

If I were mafia and I wanted AggonyDuck dead so bad, then I'd just kill him.

This is wrong. Mafia want to get people other than themselves lynched because...then they avoid getting lynched. Mafia 101.

btw Andres, what result on kukri did you send banquo?

[AggonyDuck]

I'd recommend that you don't bandwagon Andres instead of me. We've agreed to tie each other up by protecting someone each night until we meet our deaths and I really don't think he is mafia. Instead we should look at the lurkers, who do not participate in townie actions and put pressure on them instead. If the town effort implodes and turns on itself due to an accusation by Caesar, it is propable that the lurking mafioso will survive for far too long.

[Beskar]

If anyone noticed, AggonyDuck lied in his PM about his name, on top, he even named the famous Cicero of being his true role.

However, I noticed a flaw, possibly in the game. Roman Senate had 3 factions. The old guard as it were, led by Scipio, The Populares led by Mark Anthony, and then there were the Moderates (in the middle) led by Cicero.

[AggonyDuck]

If anyone noticed, AggonyDuck lied in his PM about his name, on top, he even named the famous Cicero of being his true role.

However, I noticed a flaw, possibly in the game. Roman Senate had 3 factions. The old guard as it were, led by Scipio, The Populares led by Mark Anthony, and then there were the Moderates (in the middle) led by Cicero.

Where exactly did I lie about it? I can't find any instance where I would had used another name than Publius Cornelius Lentulus Spinther, so you must have misread something.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I'd recommend that you don't bandwagon Andres instead of me. We've agreed to tie each other up by protecting someone each night until we meet our deaths and I really don't think he is mafia. Instead we should look at the lurkers, who do not participate in townie actions and put pressure on them instead. If the town effort implodes and turns on itself due to an accusation by Caesar, it is propable that the lurking mafioso will survive for far too long.

Hmm I agree:

No player may do more than 1 night action per night. There are no exceptions to this rule.

We should get as many people involved in groups as we can.
unvote:Andres

Vote:Tiberius of Drake

Vote:AggonyDuck

The reveal by caesar seems to be pretty damning evidence.

[AggonyDuck]

Sasaki, that definately seems like a good option for a vote.

unvote: Chaotix
Vote: Tiberius of the Drake

[Iskander 3.1]

I can't defend against your vote since you didn't give any reasons for it.

That long defense you just gave seems good enough for me. Unvote: Andres

[Andres]

This is wrong. Mafia want to get people other than themselves lynched because...then they avoid getting lynched. Mafia 101.

No. a) Why pushing hard for lynching one particular player? b) Was I under pressure before I attacked Duck? No, so why bother? c) If I wouldn't have made a case against Duck, town would probably just have bandwagoned on him and the round would have ended with not much discussion just like the previous one. Ironically, AggonyDuck will probably survive this round because I built a case against him and gave him the opportunity to defend himself.

btw Andres, what result on kukri did you send banquo?

Innocent.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No. a) Why pushing hard for lynching one particular player? b) Was I under pressure before I attacked Duck? No, so why bother? c) If I wouldn't have made a case against Duck, town would probably just have bandwagoned on him and the round would have ended with not much discussion just like the previous one. Ironically, AggonyDuck will probably survive this round because I built a case against him and gave him the opportunity to defend himself.

You're in the position of denying that mafia try and get people lynched, and claiming they don't frame people. You were out for blood earlier, that's what drew attention towards you.

Innocent.

No...he said that the result was different from the rest, and that therefore kukri was guilty. The point here was to not read to much into the wording of the results. TinCow stated that they only reveal faction.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Well, I do admit this is slightly annoying, getting inadvertently revealed a Praetor due to a feud between two comrades, but that's the way the game goes, I guess. In the meantime, I will keep my bond with both Ducky and Andres for the time being and

Vote: Tiberius of the Drake

[Beskar]

Where exactly did I lie about it? I can't find any instance where I would had used another name than Publius Cornelius Lentulus Spinther, so you must have misread something.

I did. The quote as your name.

[Andres]

You're in the position of denying that mafia try and get people lynched, and claiming they don't frame people. You were out for blood earlier, that's what drew attention towards you.

I suspected AggonyDuck and built my case. He defended himself (key of the defense being part of his special ability ("and whether the target was active, though not what they were doing." ) which I overlooked), I unvoted. I fail to see what's wrong with that.

And as for being out for blood earlier, same goes for you, organiser of a vigilante group

No...he said that the result was different from the rest, and that therefore kukri was guilty. The point here was to not read to much into the wording of the results. TinCow stated that they only reveal faction.

Point taken.

[LittleGrizzly]

I wasn't sure at all about Andres and Ducky's accusations of each other... but if they are happy to keep temselves busy doing to towns work at night then what better way to prove thgier innocence (or at least deny the mafia a kill) but if they were mafia i think they acted slightly stupidly in trying to organise night actions... although i guess theres the old reverse physcology which makes just about any move possible...

Is tiberius of drake really a lurker... ?

*checks thread*

Not Voting: 12 (*Greyblades, everyone, Tiberius of the Drake, *Don Corleone, *A Very Super Market, Iskander 3.1, atheotes, *Tratorix, *Lord Winter, Ignoramus, *Cronos Impera)

* = Have failed to vote twice in a row.

(from TC 2 nights ago, removed Glenn as he's already dead)

I would say we leave those who haven't voted twice in a row as wog bait, any who suddenly reappear just to make a vote are grewat candidates for a lynch, even one who comes back and starts participating properly is possibly a good lynch... but concentrate on those who have missed one vote so far

So Tiberius, Iksander, atheotes, everyone and Ignoramus

Going back to the thread since TC made the list these guys have...

Ignoramus is participating and posted a fair few times as well as posting his role pm, so i removed him from the list...

Iksander has posted quite a few times also... so removed him...

Here are a few on TC's list who are quite 'lurky'

everyone https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=495

just a abstain voting post, could just be new and unsure...

Greyblades https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=461
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=446

Upon making TC's list he comes up with a short vote post...

TotD https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=466
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=450

Finally Cronos, who was going to be wogged... comes up with this

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=444
A no proscription vote and notice no pattern has yet emerged...

Im going to Vote Cronos start participating more... or die!

[Iskander 3.1]

Thanks, Lil'Grizzly. Looking back on his posts (or lack there of) Tiberius of Drake does seem to be a little suspicious.

Vote: Tiberius of the Drake

I await your defence, sir. You have 5 hours.

[Andres]

as a “rule-of-thumb” missing 3 votes in a row is likely to result in your removal if you were also not participating in the discussion during that time.

This game deserves better than 6 possible WoG's on day 3

*Greyblades,
*Don Corleone
*A Very Super Market
*Tratorix
*Lord Winter
*Cronos Impera

I suggest we spam the inboxes of those six.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

good points all around, Tiberius of the drake, we may have worked together earlier but lurking is not good for the town

unvote: abstain, Vote: Tiberius of the Drake

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I almost believe AggonyDuck, but for now,
Vote: AggonyDuck

am no longer sure of AggonyDucks guilt....

Unvote: AggonyDuck, vote: abstain

for now at least.

good points all around, Tiberius of the drake, we may have worked together earlier but lurking is not good for the town

unvote: abstain, Vote: Tiberius of the Drake

[Iskander 3.1]

I agree Andres, Tin Cow has worked too hard to have this happen. I'm especially surprised because some of those listed seem to be pretty active in other places. Let the spam begin.

(Maybe I shouldn't speak because I missed one vote due to RL getting in the way but for that many they should at least let us know if they'll be absent)

[TinCow]

This game deserves better than 6 possible WoG's on day 3

*Greyblades,
*Don Corleone
*A Very Super Market
*Tratorix
*Lord Winter
*Cronos Impera

I suggest we spam the inboxes of those six.

I have 3 replacement players lined up, thus the first three WoGs will simply result in a change in player, not a death. I'm also not inclined to cause a massacre, so I will be lenient (for now ) if the non-voters have at least been participating in the discussion a bit.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

what? if the vote shifters are still around if we don't keep the votes together then things can go all crazy. when I woke up this morning everyone thought Aggonyduck was guilty and reading things through so did I. then I thought about things and read it all through and decided he wasn't guilty, and Abstained. when It was obvious we were going to start lynching lurkers I voted Tiberius.

(iskander, what do you have to say about our royal council in WotB, I haven't got anyone's thoughts back yet and this is kind of big....)

[LittleGrizzly]

I did miss one of greayblades posts as well, an unimportant sentence about vote switchers but an extra post all the same....

In fairness to TotD he has actually made a few posts... he may be a slight lurker but he's picked up since TC's list, though this could be paranoid play i think he is far better not to lynch than some others like....

Edit: this part of my post vanished!!

ohh well, i was saying everyone is possibly a better lynch, came in made a one line vote post (abstain) saying he didn't know whats happening... could ust be new though... someone else as well

ohh atheotes, recently lurked to death as mafia in star wars game... possibly a lurking mafia here to ?

But my personal favourite, Cronos, he appeared on TC's wong list with a *, meaning he was in danger of the wog, out of all those in danger of the wog only he and greyblades have appeared, greyblades has made a decent few posts and explained his absence, Cronos made only one post, saying there was no pattern and voted for no lynch... this screams scum to me...

So much so that if it was someone i knew to be an experienced player i wouldn't suspect it... but cronos is new i think to mafia ?

Anyone tell me about Cronos mafia playing ?

Atheotes who hasn't even made a single post since appearing on TC's list (potential wog bait end of the day after today)

Everyone who made one post since appearing on TC's list which basically said he didn't have a clue and voted abstain...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Just a quick note that A Very Super Market failed to send in orders to me as Don in Omerta last night for the first time in the game, which means his inactivity is somewhat consistent. However, he did read my feedback PM for that night fairly quickly after it was sent.

I'd say more about the other players involved at both games, but Omerta is ongoing at the moment and I don't want to spoil it.

[Csargo]

Unvote:GH, Vote:abstain