How do you manage taxes?

[Flavius Gonzo]

In previous total war titles, figuring out where to set each provinces taxes was easy: generally keep them as high as possible without causing revolts, and on occaison, when quick growth is needed for a province (maybe a beachhead city, or one with a unique guild), decrease them.

However, I'm having a tough time figuring out where to set them in ETW with this new concept of town wealth. I'm still pretty new to the game and on my first campaign, so I don't know how the end game will play out, but I'm struggling with where to set taxes. Obviously avoiding revolts is priority #1. And tax decisions related to military decisions are still pretty logical -- better to raise taxes to bolster defenses or keep a campaign moving, right?

But what if I've just taken a new region or two and I'm holding of on expanding for a few turns to focus on my economy -- how should taxes play into this? If keeping them low means I won't be able to upgrade a plantation/farm/mine/school as soon, is it worth it? Is it worth it to raise taxes to build another unit of Indiamen sooner?

And most importantly, how big of an impact will high tax have in the long run? Has anyone figured out a solid set of general operating principles yet? (E.G, always high taxes in Europe, low in Americas, except when necessary militarily, etc.)

[anweRU]

I try to keep my taxes at 3/1 at the beginning of the game, though it may need tweaking - for e.g. as GB, I set my European taxes to 3/1, and NA taxes to 1/1 initially (because of the unrest, and relatively small income from taxes there at the start anyway). Setting the lower class tax allows rapid growth of regions, which means a stronger economy in the long run.

As a rule, once all towns are established in a theater, I switch the taxes to 3/3.

Exempt newly conquered regions from taxes until they the total happiness/unhappiness gauge reaches zero with taxes enabled.

If that won't help (because of huge unrest in newly conquered region for e.g.), then let the taxman do his job, and crush the rebel army (that pops up in the 3rd turn) for an extra suppression bonus for 5 turns.

Setting taxes at the highest level is a sure way to lose income in the long term (loss of town wealth for the higher, loss of population for the lower).

Setting taxes at the highest level for a particular class is an option I use only to incite a revolution, so I can change the political order.

[Fwapper]

Generally I avoid very high taxes unless I'm about to go bankrupt - although once you have conquered most or all of a theatre and it is fairly stable you can go as high as you like.

Otherwise I generally keep taxes as low as I can afford to - let the free market take care of things.

(As if that's worked in real life recently... )

[TinCow]

I agree with the above. 3/3 is standard. High and Very High should be avoided unless you really need the tax income. This is particularly important in a Republic, as high taxes often result in a change in government, which can remove all the ministers you've worked to get in there.

I've never seen a need for taxes below 3 for the upper class unless you have happiness problems or urgently need to save a government whose popularity is below 50%. However, lower class taxes should be dropped to 1 whenever you need to grow towns. This need depends entirely on your provinces in that theater. Some provinces start the game with all towns already spawned, so there's no need for this. If all your towns are not spawned though, you should keep the lower class taxes at 1 as much as possible. This greatly increases the speed of town spawning.

To check and see if you have towns left to spawn, click on the province capital, then click on the province name bar in the middle of the UI. In the bottom left hand corner is a little box that says the name of the next town to spawn and how many turns until it does. You can see how the lower class tax rate impacts this by changing it while that window is still up. If you mouse over the unspawned towns on the campaign map (they're little clusters of brown/blackish buildings) you can find the name of the one that matches the next one to spawn. This is useful in figuring out how important it is for you to pump town growth. For instance, it might be worth sacrificing the tax income if the next town spawn is a port, but not if it's landlocked (or vice versa).

[Fisherking]

It is not as effective post patch as it was but I still try to tax exempt regions with negative economic growth or with towns or ports to spawn.

It was possible to grow the region’s value at a better rate than the tax income.

Many regions now wind up as 0 growth but it beats loosing money.

Some regions have 100 or less in taxes anyway.

I hardly ever adjust the rate.

[Slaists]

I agree with the above. 3/3 is standard. High and Very High should be avoided unless you really need the tax income. This is particularly important in a Republic, as high taxes often result in a change in government, which can remove all the ministers you've worked to get in there.

I've never seen a need for taxes below 3 for the upper class unless you have happiness problems or urgently need to save a government whose popularity is below 50%. However, lower class taxes should be dropped to 1 whenever you need to grow towns. This need depends entirely on your provinces in that theater. Some provinces start the game with all towns already spawned, so there's no need for this. If all your towns are not spawned though, you should keep the lower class taxes at 1 as much as possible. This greatly increases the speed of town spawning.

To check and see if you have towns left to spawn, click on the province capital, then click on the province name bar in the middle of the UI. In the bottom left hand corner is a little box that says the name of the next town to spawn and how many turns until it does. You can see how the lower class tax rate impacts this by changing it while that window is still up. If you mouse over the unspawned towns on the campaign map (they're little clusters of brown/blackish buildings) you can find the name of the one that matches the next one to spawn. This is useful in figuring out how important it is for you to pump town growth. For instance, it might be worth sacrificing the tax income if the next town spawn is a port, but not if it's landlocked (or vice versa).

The problem with taxes set at high for Nobility is that it drastically reduces wealth growth or even makes it VERY negative. Check your town displays when you change taxes. I played around with this variable in my British campaign, moving nobility taxes from middle to high resulted in wealth growth switching from positive to slightly negative; moving nobility taxes to maximum resulted in significant wealth reduction across the board (about -50 to -70 ducats per province per turn). To illustrate, take those -50 ducats per province and tax them at 50% (or whatever the max tax rate is). That translates into negative -25 tax change per province per turn. If, for example, Britain holds 30 provinces, that means -750 tax shrinkage per turn... Over long run: it could easily ruin tax revenue base for good...

So, in summary raising taxes for low classes results in population stagnation, raising taxes for nobility results in diminishing wealth and diminishing tax returns in the long run.

As to myself: I just leave taxes right in the middle for both classes and try to build up to increase wealth. If I want a province to spawn towns faster, I just give it a tax-free-zone status for a while. It helps wealth growth too... Florida, for example, doubled its wealth while I was waiting for two towns to spawn there.

Come to think of it, this must be one of the explanations why some folks have very hard time managing their treasuries now. Taxing the max out of the nobility results in wealth shrinkage and shrinking tax revenue in the long run...

[seireikhaan]

I usually stick both of them at 2 so long as I'm not desperately in need of every cent I can get.

[anweRU]

Come to think of it, this must be one of the explanations why some folks have very hard time managing their treasuries now. Taxing the max out of the nobility results in wealth shrinkage and shrinking tax revenue in the long run...

Just a reminder, the negative modifier only affects town wealth. The regions's base income (mines, ports, farms, industry & commodity) will not be affected. So you have a baseline tax base which you can't fall below.

Some people might indeed be taxing the heck out of their upper class, and stagnating growth. Hence their regional tax base never increases, and cannot keep up with their increasing costs.

In my pre-patch VH Swedish campaign, with fully developed ~ 35 or so provinces circa 1746, I was bringing in 120K per turn tax revenue. Post-patch, if fell to a still respectable 80K, above my expenses. The town wealth modifier did wonders. Even a couple of regions with no (industries,farms,commodities,ports) had regional wealth in the several thousands, thanks to the enlightenment techs.

I'll be curious to see how much I will be able to accomplish with my v1.2 GB H campaign. I'm only on turn 31 or 32 at the moment...

[Slaists]

Just a reminder, the negative modifier only affects town wealth. The regions's base income (mines, ports, farms, industry & commodity) will not be affected. So you have a baseline tax base which you can't fall below.

Some people might indeed be taxing the heck out of their upper class, and stagnating growth. Hence their regional tax base never increases, and cannot keep up with their increasing costs.

In my pre-patch VH Swedish campaign, with fully developed ~ 35 or so provinces circa 1746, I was bringing in 120K per turn tax revenue. Post-patch, if fell to a still respectable 80K, above my expenses. The town wealth modifier did wonders. Even a couple of regions with no (industries,farms,commodities,ports) had regional wealth in the several thousands, thanks to the enlightenment techs.

I'll be curious to see how much I will be able to accomplish with my v1.2 GB H campaign. I'm only on turn 31 or 32 at the moment...

Well, the numbers I was giving -50 to -70 per turn were absolute numbers I saw in game. So, in terms of the absolute tax long-term hit, the calculations were still correct as long as towns have any wealth that can be shrunk. Also: town wealth affects yields on industrial improvements of the province: hence, tax revenue from those too...

[anweRU]

The -50 to -70 per turn is to town wealth, not regional wealth. To test, you can start a new UP campaign, set India to max, and hit end turn for several times. Ceylon's regional wealth will not go below the base income of the port + farm + mine (if you build it) + tea plantation. However, it's town wealth (IIRC there is none at the start) will never increase, remaining forever at 0, because of the negative wealth modifier.

GB's American territories are another example at the start. They have no town wealth at the beginning. Despite having ports, the initial per turn modifier for town wealth is negative even if you set taxes to the lowest. I did not get any town wealth until I researched some enlightenment techs, and built the basic roads. However, The total region wealth - which is your tax base - never went down, as there was no town wealth to begin with.

Now, if I were to be dumb enough to max taxes at this point when there is some town wealth, the regional wealth would decrease that amount, until town wealth zeros out, then it would remain stable at the baseline.

Town wealth modifiers include: enlightenment, ports, roads & industry modifiers. Government (i.e. ministers & king/president) is another factor.

[Slaists]

The -50 to -70 per turn is to town wealth, not regional wealth. To test, you can start a new UP campaign, set India to max, and hit end turn for several times. Ceylon's regional wealth will not go below the base income of the port + farm + mine (if you build it) + tea plantation. However, it's town wealth (IIRC there is none at the start) will never increase, remaining forever at 0, because of the negative wealth modifier.

GB's American territories are another example at the start. They have no town wealth at the beginning. Despite having ports, the initial per turn modifier for town wealth is negative even if you set taxes to the lowest. I did not get any town wealth until I researched some enlightenment techs, and built the basic roads. However, The total region wealth - which is your tax base - never went down, as there was no town wealth to begin with.

Now, if I were to be dumb enough to max taxes at this point when there is some town wealth, the regional wealth would decrease that amount, until town wealth zeros out, then it would remain stable at the baseline.

Town wealth modifiers include: enlightenment, ports, roads & industry modifiers. Government (i.e. ministers & king/president) is another factor.

I understand your point. However, IF a town has wealth (and that was the point when I tested max taxes on nobility), that gets taxed too. So, at max tax rate (let's say 50%), -25 (50% of -50) hit would still be applied to the tax revenue. -25 (decreasing) per turn until the town wealth is depleted.

Another factor: town wealth affects resource yields. Poor towns get less from mines, etc., resulting in another effective tax hit that one gets in the case of negative town wealth growth.

[Flavius Gonzo]

These are all great tips - thank you all. I fear I have been setting my taxes too high.

[Eusebius86]

I make taxes for the lower class as low as possible to make towns grow faster. I generally set the upper class taxes in the middle or at 2 depending on how town wealth is in all my regions. Just make sure you aren't incurring negative town wealth. Once all your regions in Europe are developed fully, tax the lower class as high as they can stand it!!!

[knoddy]

auto manage unless im going bankrupt or something. i usually leave mine on auto which seems to mean it stays on 3 (normal?) and exempts regions with high unrest (blooody paris) however in my recent vh/vh polish camp at the start i started going poor so i cranked em up to very high for a few turns without and reprecussions


Cheers Knoddy

[nafod]

No more than 3/3. Drop as needed to quell unrest. I find the growth/ revenue ratio to be best at this level.

[Skott]

I usually run my taxes 3/2 but sometimes I'll bump it up to 3/3 for a few turns for some extra cash if I think I can get away with it.