The Obssession with Homosexuality

[Fragony]

Marriage predates Christianity. What Christians consider an ancient, inherently Christian tradition is in fact much older.

Not only that. This Christian 'tradition' has changed throughout the centuries, and throughout different places. Do not mistake a few centuries-old, northwest European practise for a timeless intitution.





Homosexuality in ancient Greece, as described by the Towering Giant of Western philosophy, Plato. For Plato, as was the custom in Greece, male homosexuality was the most manly, most revered form of love:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Speech of Aristophanes
PLATO

From the Symposium, by Plato, translated by Alexander Nehamas and Paul Woodruff, 1989

I am not completely unknowlegdable about all that crap, but, even in Greece marriage was between a man and a woman. You seem to be so very fond of institutionalised things, why do you think the concept of marriage in every culture is between a man and a woman. Baby's, reproduction.

[Louis VI the Fat]

You seem to be so very fond of institutionalised things, why do you think the concept of marriage in every culture is between a man and a woman.

Same-Sex Couples Creating Households in Old Regime France: The Uses of the Affrèrement.

From the Journal of Modern History


Medieval gay Europeans had more legal rights than modern gay Europeans. Back then, they had three options:
1 - join into a legal union with another man
2 - don't and parade around in fabulous costumes and have mad gay orgies every night
3 - don't and parade around in fabulous costumes within a Catholic Church.

Today, only the last two options are open to gay men.

[Vuk]

Same-Sex Couples Creating Households in Old Regime France: The Uses of the Affrèrement.

From the Journal of Modern History


Medieval gay Europeans had more legal rights than modern gay Europeans. Back then, they had three options:
1 - join into a legal union with another man
2 - don't and parade around in fabulous costumes and have mad gay orgies every night
3 - don't and parade around in fabulous costumes within a Catholic Church.

Today, only the last two options are open to gay men.

This legal union was NOT marriage though, was it? I do not have access to the article now so I cannot read more than a little bit of the introduction, but that is not what I got from it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

This legal union was NOT marriage though, was it? I do not have access to the article now so I cannot read more than a little bit of the introduction, but that is not what I got from it.

Indeed it was not a marriage. The affrèrement ('joining as brothers') is closest to what today would be called a 'civil union'.

[Fragony]

Same-Sex Couples Creating Households in Old Regime France: The Uses of the Affrèrement.

From the Journal of Modern History


Medieval gay Europeans had more legal rights than modern gay Europeans. Back then, they had three options:
1 - join into a legal union with another man
2 - don't and parade around in fabulous costumes and have mad gay orgies every night
3 - don't and parade around in fabulous costumes within a Catholic Church.

Today, only the last two options are open to gay men.

Doesn't change anything. Marriage is a concept because marriage makes baby's. No matter how cheerful you are you are still too gay.

[LittleGrizzly]

So marriage was around before Christianity...

Christianity adopted marriage into its framework (as well as a bunch of other religions)

Christianity now has ownership off the word ?

What is this.... a numbers game... i remember some quote about the tyranny of the majority...

These days marriage is shared across plenty of religions, agnostics and atheists... what some dusty old book says on the matter is off no importance, i also remember some silly comments in some religious book about not talking to mensurating women, any members of that religion cn follow such out of date rules if they choose to but they are not allowed to enforce that belief on the rest of us through the state...

[Louis VI the Fat]

That is a good post, Rhy.

Your theological beliefs are your own. By their nature they elude me agreeing or disagreeing with them. Maybe I should have done what I usuall do, and refrain from taking an internal theological position. I mostly wanted to point out that some Christians do not think homosexuality a sin. And that many more will leave judgement to God. Likewise, homophobia is not a Christian invention. Many non-Christians are bigots, unmitigated too by any Christian concepts of forgiveness or the passing on of judgement. (Yes, I was standing up for Christians. ;-) )

From an external, non-theological perspective, I think that an ideology that names homosexuality 'sinful', ie, inferior, is disgraceful and bigoted. (Yes, attacking Christianity here again)

Earlier in this thread, I named provincialism as the main culprit behind homophobia.

[Fixiwee]

Marriage is a concept because marriage makes baby's.

Marrige in the sense of the state is a legal procedure. It implies certain obligations to the married couple to the state, but also implies easier procedures of heritage and better taxes for both.
Marrige is to the state, not to biology. I can make babies without being married.

[Fragony]

Marrige is to the state, not to biology. I can make babies without being married.

Hence my amazement that they want to get married, why.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It seems they just can't keep out of other people's religion

I am absoutedly disgusted about this, I never thought I would see the day when such a solid church would consider such things. If this guy gets to keep his position, then I think that I will be forced to leave. Ideally, many in the church will break away to form a new rival Church of Scotland, which I will join. If not, it looks like I'll be joining the local fundamentalist Baptists because I'm not staying in a church that mocks the scripture like this.

[Brenus]

Anyway. nowadays only clergymen and gays wanted o get marriage... (for the French: Mis a part les cures, plus personne ne veut se marier... -Jean Ferrat-)

For the Catholic Church, marriage in one of the holly sacement, confirmed by the Concil of Trente, along side the baptism (followed by the confirmation), confession, the last rites, forget the last one.

[Louis VI the Fat]

it looks like I'll be joining the local fundamentalist Baptists because I'm not staying in a church that mocks the scripture like this.

Hmm...I usually refrain from engaging in theological disputes. However, I think that there are a great many Christians out there who think of their religion as one of love, not of bigotry. They worry about their own soul. Might pray for the salvation of others. And will abstain from making final judgements of others - people like themselves, struggling with what's right and what's wrong.

Scripture says not to judge prostitutes, leppars. Not to cast the first stone. Many Christians see their religion in this manner. What is it about homosexuality that you feel one must hate them so much that one can not even be part of a kirk that refuses to ostracise gays? Didn't Jesus himself took pity on prostitutes, the outcasts, the lowest?

I still maintain that hatred of gays is not an inherently Christian duty. What's more, even amongst those Christians who do think homosexuality sinful, many are forgiving, or will leave judgement to a higher authority.
[/theological dispute from internal Christian perspective]