How to negotiate a protectorate?

[Flavius Gonzo]

Arg... so as France I've beseiged Wurttemburg's only city (Stuttgart, I think), with a full stack of troops; they've got a full stack parked inside. On the first turn of the siege, they sally, and I complete destroy them, taking 10-15% losses while annihilating their entire army, they are left with only a half strength unit of militia and a half stength unit of light cav.

The thing is, I'd rather they be a protectorate than have to take and have to defend the city, I am at war with everyone to their east. Only problem is, they won't accept being a protectorate, which is downright stupid; they're only other alternative is to be destroyed.

Has anyone faced a similar situation? How do I convince the AI to be a protectorate? Is there anyway to take Stuttgart and then offer it back to them even though they've been destroyed?

[anweRU]

Once they are dead, they are dead. You typically need to offer something to make a nation your protectorate. It one game, Westphalia became my (French) protectorate for a grand sum of something like 24 gp (all that I had left in the coffers at the end of turn 1).

[Oaty]

Usually you have to offer them a large sum of money usually 50k so usually you'r better off just conquering them

[snorky]

that's funny, I have by now, in my UP campaigns about five minor nations and even a two mayor nations as protectorate all by offering them 4000 gold, threatening seems to help though. However note that when I started on my protectorate spree I already owned half of europe and was begining the big push eastward. I was like, you either join through protectorate or I trample my armies over your land. The AI seemed to take the hint, since pretty much every minor nation in europa soon joined me to form one mighty front against Prussia and Poland Lithuania.

[Fisherking]

The best time to get protectorates is first turn or so. Give them 1 or 2 thousand and ask for anything you like. Protectorate and trade rights is my favorite.

If they don’t agree then just kill them. Don’t bother with it. I am not sure I am getting anything for them anyway. There is always something in other but what is what?

Württemberg is Catholic so France won’t have that much trouble out of them and you can use the school anyway.

[Flavius Gonzo]

So, a note on how this plays into my geopolitical strategy:

My goal (as France) is to avoid getting dragged into the monster East european conflict that is raging right now. I want a buffer zone between me and Austrian/Polish/Prussian/Ottoman aggression. I took the Netherlands, Rhineland, Stuggart, which I kept, and Bavaria, and Hannover, which I traded away. Ideally, this allows me to focus recruitment and upkeep on the colonies, and finish my north african campaign. Having big stacks in mainland europe, africa and the colonies simultaneously is just too expensive.

I've played a few turns out different ways, and the problem as I see it, is that you are nearly certain to eventually be at war with your neighbors, which in some cases, means a war with a lot more than that. And this can cost a lot more than just recruitment/upkeep -- e.g, a war with Russia or the Ottomans means the loss of a super lucrative trade route for me.

It seems that if you have a protectorate at your borders they won't declare war against you, but then someone else DOWs them, and you have a war on your hands anyway, or a giant penalty to your relations across the board for refusing to protect them.

So, I almost feel like the best situation here is not protectorate at your borders, but a third party that might give you another trade route out of the deal. In an ideal world, they get DOW'ed from the east, but manage to hold the enemy at bay for a while.

I've got a similar problem coming up for Tripoltania -- if I hang on to it, that's a shared border with the Ottomans, which is a bad idea. But who do I give it up to? I'm actually thinking the plains indians, does that even make sense? Other options would be italy, who is a protectorate (this risks a DOW from Ottoman to Italy though) or Morroco, who is not a protectorate but could be a trade partner.

Thoughts?

[jsberry]

You can conquer Wurtenburg and then give it to Westphalia in exchange for Westphalia being your protectorate. An instant eastern buffer.

[Turbosatan]

So, a note on how this plays into my geopolitical strategy:

My goal (as France) is to avoid getting dragged into the monster East european conflict that is raging right now. I want a buffer zone between me and Austrian/Polish/Prussian/Ottoman aggression. I took the Netherlands, Rhineland, Stuggart, which I kept, and Bavaria, and Hannover, which I traded away. Ideally, this allows me to focus recruitment and upkeep on the colonies, and finish my north african campaign. Having big stacks in mainland europe, africa and the colonies simultaneously is just too expensive.

I've played a few turns out different ways, and the problem as I see it, is that you are nearly certain to eventually be at war with your neighbors, which in some cases, means a war with a lot more than that. And this can cost a lot more than just recruitment/upkeep -- e.g, a war with Russia or the Ottomans means the loss of a super lucrative trade route for me.

It seems that if you have a protectorate at your borders they won't declare war against you, but then someone else DOWs them, and you have a war on your hands anyway, or a giant penalty to your relations across the board for refusing to protect them.

So, I almost feel like the best situation here is not protectorate at your borders, but a third party that might give you another trade route out of the deal. In an ideal world, they get DOW'ed from the east, but manage to hold the enemy at bay for a while.

I've got a similar problem coming up for Tripoltania -- if I hang on to it, that's a shared border with the Ottomans, which is a bad idea. But who do I give it up to? I'm actually thinking the plains indians, does that even make sense? Other options would be italy, who is a protectorate (this risks a DOW from Ottoman to Italy though) or Morroco, who is not a protectorate but could be a trade partner.

Giving Tripolitania to the PLains Indians is a great idea, I think; but maybe it would be better to give it to someone who threaten the Ottomans' "other flank", that might precipitate a multi-front war for them should they decide to go campaigning? E.G. The Marathas/Mughals/Persia (if any of those dudes are still in the game)?

[Flavius Gonzo]

Interesting thought Turbosatan -- downside of this though is that the Turks might wipe out Tripoltania quickly if I give it to an enemy of theirs; them I'm stuck with a border with Otto which is exactly what I want to avoid.

I went with Morroco who is at war with the Ottomans, and negotiated 2 way military access; thinking that when Tripoltania gets attacked by Otto they can at least march that giant stack across north africa to defend it. Bonus is, I can march troops from africa over the straights of gibralter if spain gets uppity, which they seem to trending towards.

The risk is now is that Morroco decides to employ that same giant stack on Algiers or Tunis, which are finally turning a profit for me.

Not sure if there really is a "right" answer here. Plains indians, or even someone neutral from europe could probably get attacked by Otto just as easily. It would be interesting to try to play this scenario out several ways and see what worked best in the long run, but I definitely do not have the time.

[Servius]

I play on the Hard campaign setting. On Hard, you can only offer to be a protector to nations with only 1 region. If the nation has 2+ regions, the option to become a protectorate doesn't even appear.

As GB, about midway through the game when my power was Supreme and my reputation was Sublime, I found that 2,500 or 5,000 was enough to induce nations to become protectorates of mine. Right now, nearly ever German state, the Hospitallers, and several native american tribes are protectorates of mine. I have about 12-15 of them.

[anweRU]

I didn't like protectorates pre-patch, but I've started to use them post-patch due to the increased administrative tax penalty when your empire grows.

My role-playing aim originally was to conquer India and the Americas as GB. But as I had already unlocked the Maharaja of India achievement pre-patch, I decided to divest my poorer Indian holding to lower my tax penalty, and to concentrate on North America... I gave Kasmir to Hannover, Afghanistan to Crimea (the new Crimea, which rebelled against Russia), Ahmadnagar to Savoy and Sindh to Wurtemburg. As the AI goes for the jugular when setting its tax rates, I actually end up getting more income from the territories I gave to these nations to make them protectorates.

To be honest, that is the only use I have found for protectorates so far... They're good as buffers as well I suppose.

[LuxIrae]

On the Harder setting protectorates have become a big part of my strategy. I find there biggest use to be as recipients of territory I really dont want, either because it is too hard to suppress the religious and occupation tension or because my (very expensive to maintain on harder) troops are urgently needed elsewhere.

Biggest frustration with protectorates is that they can be at war with each other and they only join you in a new war if they are a protectorate when it starts... ie no good in ongoing conflicts. However the upside of this is that if I deem I cannot hold a newly acquired territory I can gift it to a protectorate with good relations to the people I just took it from. Maybe not quite as good as keeping the territy myself, but I get some easy income and my enemy dont immediately take it back. (think some of the AI rationale for going to war or not is deeply flawed)

[GFX707]

Only problem is, they won't accept being a protectorate, which is downright stupid; they're only other alternative is to be destroyed.

This is one of the biggest problems with the TW series since RTW....completely unrealistic, stubborn, not to mention suicidally stupid AI.

Just take the city, protectorates can basically declare war on you at any time and that's likely to happen, especially since the last patch when the AI switched from "do nothing" to "make sure to get killed by player" mode. Would you rather move all your troops to the east and then have to deal with France again later on?

[Servius]

After I first started tinkering with the protectorate option, I now always go after the Plains Nations and Inuit. Both of them start off the game with only 1 region, and that region is totally out there by itself. This means they're eligible to become protectorates right off the bat and they're much less likely to declare war, or have war declared on them, so they won't get you into fights you don't want to be in. The Hospitallers are like that too, but as GB and with the current set of rules, I'll have to take Malta from them to win the grand campaign. Being a protectorate should count as being captured regarding victory conditions.

[Vlad Tzepes]

Protectorates can now DoW on you. Happened with Spain after I reduced it to only one province and offered tech and some money to turn it into a protectorate. It stayed so for like 3 or 4 turns, then it declared war. Funny enough, it was still labeled "protectorate" even when I was besieging their last city. I also took a screenshot on that.