How history will view us...

[Rhyfelwyr]

I second the above grumpy old bugger. I am sick of the values I've been spoon fed ever since I started secondary school, its all about furthering yourself, greed is good, me me me etc.

[Fragony]

Must be you two. Live with a smile and life smiles back. I see nothing aparently, I see no increase in egoism, quite the opposite really. Fakery, no don't see that either. The english usually don't have to fake to be annoying. Maybe I live on a tiny little island where all things are fine but I really don't understand the pessimism. These are fabulous times if you ask me, everything has improved, count your blessings.

[Incongruous]

I second the above grumpy old bugger. I am sick of the values I've been spoon fed ever since I started secondary school, its all about furthering yourself, greed is good, me me me etc.

It is not so much the greed is good part, its the general "whatever man", "be who you want to be" crap being over used in school and society. It seems to have created a generation of people whith chronically low self-esteem which leads to self obsession which leads to massive amounts of fakery and ego. Acting, is the prime game of life.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Is self-esteem really an issue with our generation (presuming you are around 19)? We are always being taught to be confident, to sell ourselves, its a dog eat dog world etc...

[Incongruous]

Is self-esteem really an issue with our generation (presuming you are around 19)? We are always being taught to be confident, to sell ourselves, its a dog eat dog world etc...

The perfect way to create someone with low self esteem, tell them how brutal and individual it all is, its helps to erect the shield of individualism, put there in order to protect whilst it isolates. I see it less as a product of greed, but agree about the me, me ,me stuff. Its all about how one can be oh so special, so exceptional, so individual. Because these things are impossible to achieve for most of us, it reall feks us up, creating all that stuff I talked about.

[Fragony]

The perfect way to create someone with low self esteem, tell them how brutal and individual it all is, its helps to erect the shield of individualism, put there in order to protect whilst it isolates.

Screw that, it's the nanny-mentality yes we can-all together! that prevents us from being individuals, we are hammered to equal size, everything must be equal, everything must be representative of society.

[Incongruous]

Screw that, it's the nanny-mentality yes we can-all together! that prevents us from being individuals, we are hammered to equal size, everything must be equal, everything must be representative of society.

What nanny-mentality?
Every society has a collective sense of itse;f and what it is, the modern attempt to stamp INDIVIDUALISM onto it in big red capital letters has really screwed Westerners up. It is a society of individulaism, that cannot work.

I am using individualism in the modern sense, I do not want to be controlled by society.

[Fragony]

What nanny-mentality?
Every society has a collective sense of itse;f and what it is, the modern attempt to stamp INDIVIDUALISM onto it in big red capital letters has really screwed Westerners up. It is a society of individulaism, that cannot work.

I am using individualism in the modern sense, I do not want to be controlled by society.

Doesn't work? Look around you, it works just fine the west as it is now is the best thing thjat ever happened to the world, it's progress. If you ask me, things go wrong for some people because they get bored.

[PBI]

These are rich men's problems, like complaining that your garage is too small for all your sports cars or your supermodel girlfriends won't stop pestering you for sex. Deprived of actual problems like war, famine or plague to worry about our society blows real but minor problems out of all proportion, like Islamic terrorism or climate change.

Self obsession and egotism are nothing new, nor is the tendency for every generation to view itself as the pinnacle of human development and the one following it as useless layabouts who will bring about the end of civilization. It's just that it's only recently that people have had the luxury of time to notice these things without being preoccupied by their family dieing of cholera or being slaughtered by marauding armies. Personally I prefer to live in a society where everyone has enough to eat than one where we can all feel smug about our moral fiber as we starve to death.

[Fragony]

These are rich men's problems

Yes. Count your blessings.

[Incongruous]

These are rich men's problems, like complaining that your garage is too small for all your sports cars or your supermodel girlfriends won't stop pestering you for sex. Deprived of actual problems like war, famine or plague to worry about our society blows real but minor problems out of all proportion, like Islamic terrorism or climate change.

Self obsession and egotism are nothing new, nor is the tendency for every generation to view itself as the pinnacle of human development and the one following it as useless layabouts who will bring about the end of civilization. It's just that it's only recently that people have had the luxury of time to notice these things without being preoccupied by their family dieing of cholera or being slaughtered by marauding armies. Personally I prefer to live in a society where everyone has enough to eat than one where we can all feel smug about our moral fiber as we starve to death.

I'm not rich, I'm normal, and I expect that such issues span all facets of Western society.

[PBI]

I'm not rich, I'm normal, and I expect that such issues span all facets of Western society.

Compared to the average citizen of just about every other society in history you are immeasurably wealthy. In fact, compared to the richest men of just about every society in history you are immeasurably wealthy. As a normal citizen of this country you have access to luxury, health and security the Emperors of Rome could only dream of.

That is all I meant in my reference to rich men's problems, that our society is essentially free from the kind of catastrophes that were a part of everyday life in earlier civilizations and is thus at liberty to consider more minor issues.

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

[Vuk]

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

lol, by American standards, Frag is not rightwing. :P You will know when you are rightwing when turn male (if you are not already), age to 40 years old (if you are not already), get fat, go bald, start carrying a sawed-off shotgun with you and searching under the bed for commies while planning to rid the world of the evil black president and bring back the greatness of Nazism. Nah, not really, but that is what the media would have you believe. :P

[Fragony]

Incidentally, I find it a new and interesting experience to be in complete agreement with Fragony. Is this what it feels like to be right wing?

You can't really be sure until you kick a

edit: Same quote wat teh vuk, synchrone-postage

[Hooahguy]

i think they will laugh

[Vuk]

People are people and always will be people. People have been made to believe that they are incredibly more enlightened and civilized than the barbarians of the past or of other cultures plenty of times before (think Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc). The only difference is that living has become so much easier that people now adays are worth a heck of a lot less than the people before them. If they put themselves in context it would be one thing, but people now adays think that they are enlightened, intelligent, moral entities who are so far above the primitives who came before them. They do not realize just how little they know of the lives of those who came before them and their own lives. How would they perform if they were sent back to the 1800s? To the 1700s? To the 1600s? None of them would survive. People now adays are less industrious, for the most part less educated then people in some past time periods, and certainly have to think less than most people from most past time periods. They have many more conveniences and have much less responsibility. Sure, there are unique challenges to modern people, including a much faster paced life, but overall life is much easier and much fairer than it used to be. Not because of us, but because of those people who came before us who we are so quick to condemn. They are the ones who built the pedestal we now stand on, and we have risen so high and grown so comfortable that we cease to build it, and indeed, cease to maintain it. Much as other great civilizations that have risen and fallen, we are getting to the point where we have grown completely content with life and ceased to maintain the foundation that everything we enjoy is built on, and when we do try to grow, we try to grow in a different direction and build upwards without a foundation. We will collapse, but we are so much higher (as far as the comfort of our living style and our distance from real life) than those who came before us (no thanks to us) that we will fall all the harder, and probably not be able to pick ourselves up. If we have any strength at all, we will find the ground, reality, on which we fall to be so foriegn and so dreadfull that we will not know what to do. It is not that we are anymore stupid today than we were 5000 years ago, simply that we have a lot more to lose for our stupidity and will have a much smaller chance of recovering.

I'll leave you to decifer my cryptic post. :P

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

[Incongruous]

People are people and always will be people. People have been made to believe that they are incredibly more enlightened and civilized than the barbarians of the past or of other cultures plenty of times before (think Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc). The only difference is that living has become so much easier that people now adays are worth a heck of a lot less than the people before them. If they put themselves in context it would be one thing, but people now adays think that they are enlightened, intelligent, moral entities who are so far above the primitives who came before them. They do not realize just how little they know of the lives of those who came before them and their own lives. How would they perform if they were sent back to the 1800s? To the 1700s? To the 1600s? None of them would survive. People now adays are less industrious, for the most part less educated then people in some past time periods, and certainly have to think less than most people from most past time periods. They have many more conveniences and have much less responsibility. Sure, there are unique challenges to modern people, including a much faster paced life, but overall life is much easier and much fairer than it used to be. Not because of us, but because of those people who came before us who we are so quick to condemn. They are the ones who built the pedestal we now stand on, and we have risen so high and grown so comfortable that we cease to build it, and indeed, cease to maintain it. Much as other great civilizations that have risen and fallen, we are getting to the point where we have grown completely content with life and ceased to maintain the foundation that everything we enjoy is built on, and when we do try to grow, we try to grow in a different direction and build upwards without a foundation. We will collapse, but we are so much higher (as far as the comfort of our living style and our distance from real life) than those who came before us (no thanks to us) that we will fall all the harder, and probably not be able to pick ourselves up. If we have any strength at all, we will find the ground, reality, on which we fall to be so foriegn and so dreadfull that we will not know what to do. It is not that we are anymore stupid today than we were 5000 years ago, simply that we have a lot more to lose for our stupidity and will have a much smaller chance of recovering.

I'll leave you to decifer my cryptic post. :P

More educated? You joking?

They sure were barbaric, not only were they enjoying God's will to slaughter everyone who disagreed with them, they had no flushing toilets.

[Vuk]

More educated? You joking?

They sure were barbaric, not only were they enjoying God's will to slaughter everyone who disagreed with them, they had no flushing toilets.

More educated does not mean that their science was more advanced, simply that they had a better understanding and were more involved with what they had than most people are today. And yeah, they were often more barbaric than we are today, but that was because they were in a much tougher world where they often had to be. We are in the world that they built, and their work allows us to enjoy relative peace. Everything we have is thanks to them, not to ourselves (no, I am not suggesting ancestor worship, simply saying we shouldn't get a big head). And you have to remember that different regions of the world and different people went through different stages of peacefulness and barbarism. Look at modern people. Not too long ago we have WWII, one of the most barbaric things in history. Oh how superior the modern man proved to be. For all you know we may soon be in WWIII, because we think we know everything and do not build on the knowledge of those who came before us and made the mistakes.
As far is individualism, you are wrong. If you live in a society where people can barely eat, it will be even worse. You will have starving, desperate people fighting to survive, and a group of wealthy who controls the majority of the very limited food. Some would live like kings, and others like dogs. Better some live like gods and others like kings.