Trade, Tradepartners and Traderoutes

[mmk]

Trade is still a feature that causes me to wonder...

I was playing Britain on M/M and by 1746 the situation was as this:
This time I followed the advice of several fellow posters on here and concentrated on the North American continet right from the start. This meant, after destroying the Carribean pirates, I took on the Cherokee nation (destroyed) and the just emerging US (detroyed). 13 colonies were still my protectorate (13 colonies at that point consisting of New England, New York, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland + Kaintuk Territory and Cherokee Territory (which I gave to them hoping that this would boost their income). The 13Cs had one trading port in New York.
I was owning Lower+ Upper Lousiana, Michigan Territory, Algonquian Territory, Carolinas, Virgina and Florida.
I had Commercial ports in Lower Lousinana and Georgia
In addition I had Bahamas, Jamaica, Windward+Leeward Islands + Trinidad&Tobago withwith commercial ports in the first 4.
In Europe I had England (with commercial ports in Newcastle, Bristol, Liverpool and Greenwich), Scotland (cp in Glasgow) and Ireland also with one commercial port.
I had farms, plantations and trade fleets aplenty + some long time trading partners.

Now the following happened - France declared war on the 13Cs - to "protect my protectorate" I joined in the war. A French fleet was blockading New York port, which resulted in ZERO trade between me (Britain) and the 13Cs - strange thing, since we were sharing at least 8 land borders. So, I came to the conclusion that the game recognises only sea trade as trade if the 13Cs are your trading partner, meaning no matter how many land borders you share in North America, trade between Britain and the 13Cs is only taking place between the 13Cs ports and Britains ports. Well, I thought this a strange thing, since the 13Cs could transfer their goods via land to my ports in North America (which were not blockaded by the French) and from there to Britain. Maybe a bit too complicated I thought.
So as not being in danger of bancruptcy, I requested peace with the French (successfully) - which of course did not stop my protectorate and the French from continuing their war. (sighs at the fact that you cannot have any influence on the policies of your protactorate).
Since I didn´t want to lose more money, I cancelled my trade agreement with the 13Cs (New York was still blockaded by the French and I wasn´t making any money from trading anyways).
Next turn I still needed money, but could not finde a trade partner to replace the 13Cs. So I declared war on the French, trying to get rid of their fleet that was blockading NewYork.
No something really ridiculous happened: I French fleet was blockading Bristol - and BINGO I was bancrupt - as having Bristol blockaded ALL my trade was cut of - meaning ZERO income from trade.
Meaning all my other commercial ports had zero value, all my trade cut of just because one port being blockaded????????????????????????????
I checked, double checked and triple checked - NO other sea trade routes were raided, none of my trading partners ports were raided or blocked.
I think it is a bit strong if ONE of your ports being blocked results in bancruptcy.
Whats the use in having more then one port then if - following the games (il)logic - all your trade is going via one port anyways.

[Fisherking]

Trade is still a feature that causes me to wonder...

I was playing Britain on M/M and by 1746 the situation was as this:
This time I followed the advice of several fellow posters on here and concentrated on the North American continet right from the start. This meant, after destroying the Carribean pirates, I took on the Cherokee nation (destroyed) and the just emerging US (detroyed). 13 colonies were still my protectorate (13 colonies at that point consisting of New England, New York, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland + Kaintuk Territory and Cherokee Territory (which I gave to them hoping that this would boost their income). The 13Cs had one trading port in New York.
I was owning Lower+ Upper Lousiana, Michigan Territory, Algonquian Territory, Carolinas, Virgina and Florida.
I had Commercial ports in Lower Lousinana and Georgia
In addition I had Bahamas, Jamaica, Windward+Leeward Islands + Trinidad&Tobago withwith commercial ports in the first 4.
In Europe I had England (with commercial ports in Newcastle, Bristol, Liverpool and Greenwich), Scotland (cp in Glasgow) and Ireland also with one commercial port.
I had farms, plantations and trade fleets aplenty + some long time trading partners.

Now the following happened - France declared war on the 13Cs - to "protect my protectorate" I joined in the war. A French fleet was blockading New York port, which resulted in ZERO trade between me (Britain) and the 13Cs - strange thing, since we were sharing at least 8 land borders. So, I came to the conclusion that the game recognises only sea trade as trade if the 13Cs are your trading partner, meaning no matter how many land borders you share in North America, trade between Britain and the 13Cs is only taking place between the 13Cs ports and Britains ports. Well, I thought this a strange thing, since the 13Cs could transfer their goods via land to my ports in North America (which were not blockaded by the French) and from there to Britain. Maybe a bit too complicated I thought.
So as not being in danger of bancruptcy, I requested peace with the French (successfully) - which of course did not stop my protectorate and the French from continuing their war. (sighs at the fact that you cannot have any influence on the policies of your protactorate).
Since I didn´t want to lose more money, I cancelled my trade agreement with the 13Cs (New York was still blockaded by the French and I wasn´t making any money from trading anyways).
Next turn I still needed money, but could not finde a trade partner to replace the 13Cs. So I declared war on the French, trying to get rid of their fleet that was blockading NewYork.
No something really ridiculous happened: I French fleet was blockading Bristol - and BINGO I was bancrupt - as having Bristol blockaded ALL my trade was cut of - meaning ZERO income from trade.
Meaning all my other commercial ports had zero value, all my trade cut of just because one port being blockaded????????????????????????????
I checked, double checked and triple checked - NO other sea trade routes were raided, none of my trading partners ports were raided or blocked.
I think it is a bit strong if ONE of your ports being blocked results in bancruptcy.
Whats the use in having more then one port then if - following the games (il)logic - all your trade is going via one port anyways.

I also have a big heartburn with the way trade works.

No matter how many ports a home region has, having one blockaded cuts all trade.

There are some other oddities with the system, like the Danes blocking all American trade via Iceland without putting fleet on the route.

Even a simpleton can see that there are other ways into a country than the one port.

Trade will not reroute to a different port however.

The fact that any Power has loads of ports and trade partners should get goods with out them being transshipped.

It is made to fail and made to keep you broke. Every change makes trade more of a problem.

I often find it tedious and frustrating. At other times infuriating. Some say they find it merely a challenge.

The trouble is that most factions can’t do without it. One turn bankrupt and the next turn all your troops are cut in half. I have no idea if that goes on until you have no units or not…

I do know that there seem to be triggers in the game to challenge any gains with some sort of counter measure.

Sorry that is not much help! I don’t find it fun. Fighting an enemy is fun but being beaten up when you are broke is not. I feel for you.

[mmk]

Thank you for the kind words! ;-)

Would it be a step too far - given the before mentioned "trade" difficulties - to say that the game is seriously lacking logic?

[knoddy]

my guess is the reason u lost ur trade with 13 colonies is because all your trade from americas has to go back to your home theatre first. any produce that comes from america is shipped back to england the shipped out to your trade partners. so by blocking their port they stop u from trading.

as for losing all your trade when 1 port was blocked... this shouldnt happen, my understanding was, say your port has 2 trade route capacity. your first 2 trading partners are at that port. the next one goes to a diff port and so on and so forth. so if they blocked that 1 port u should only lose trade with the people that were trading with that port. which makes sense. Ports have limits, which is why the have capacity. only so many ships could said in dock and load and offload cargo. my guess is 1 of 2, either this is a bug OR your port in bristol is so upgraded that its handling most of your international trade routes.

do u not have a fleet in europe to save your trade routes? i find this essential in my game, i had to send my fleet down to the mediterranian in order to kill some barbaries raiding my trade routes. Having a fleet nearbye to protect your assests is a must. even if your concentrating in a diff theatre

Cheers Knoddy

[mmk]

my guess is the reason u lost ur trade with 13 colonies is because all your trade from americas has to go back to your home theatre first. any produce that comes from america is shipped back to england the shipped out to your trade partners. so by blocking their port they stop u from trading.

as for losing all your trade when 1 port was blocked... this shouldnt happen, my understanding was, say your port has 2 trade route capacity. your first 2 trading partners are at that port. the next one goes to a diff port and so on and so forth. so if they blocked that 1 port u should only lose trade with the people that were trading with that port. which makes sense. Ports have limits, which is why the have capacity. only so many ships could said in dock and load and offload cargo. my guess is 1 of 2, either this is a bug OR your port in bristol is so upgraded that its handling most of your international trade routes.

do u not have a fleet in europe to save your trade routes? i find this essential in my game, i had to send my fleet down to the mediterranian in order to kill some barbaries raiding my trade routes. Having a fleet nearbye to protect your assests is a must. even if your concentrating in a diff theatre

Cheers Knoddy

Hi, port in bristol is a commercial port, like all the other ports are commercial ports. So in my understanding, they all should have the same trading values (as they are the same types of ports). At least that is my understanding.

And yes, I do have a fleet there, but still the fact that if just one port is blockaded all trade is blocked is a bit odd, is it?

[mmk]

my guess is the reason u lost ur trade with 13 colonies is because all your trade from americas has to go back to your home theatre first. any produce that comes from america is shipped back to england the shipped out to your trade partners. so by blocking their port they stop u from trading.

So it seems.
Although the thing that I do share land borders with the 13Cs and I have commercial ports in NAmerica, too should help here. Well, at least that is what I thought.

Thanks for your input!

[knoddy]

So it seems.
Although the thing that I do share land borders with the 13Cs and I have commercial ports in NAmerica, too should help here. Well, at least that is what I thought.

Thanks for your input!

yea but wot im saying is there is no land trade in america or india for that matter (unless its your home theatre)

the way i understand the extra theatres is that any goods are exported back to your home theatre and then exported out to your trade partners. so even tho you have borders with them the goods still go back to europe then are exported by sea back to them. since their trade port is obviously blocked, you cannot export the goods back to them. Hope that makes sense.

as for the single port stopping all trade, its either a bug or, how many trade agreements do u have? i believe the limit of a commercial basin is 4, although i could be wrong. so if u only have 4 trade agreements via sea, then its quite possible all 4 are going through this 1 port so since its blocked u get no trade, perhaps they should implement something where if u have free trade slots on other ports they should redirect the trade route to them, or, its a bug lol. let me know how many trade agreements u have.

Cheers Knoddy

[Didz]

Meaning all my other commercial ports had zero value, all my trade cut of just because one port being blockaded????????????????????????????

I think the only way this can be rationalised is to remember that we are not really dealing with state adminstered trade but are seeing the benefits of a lot of private independantly negotiated trade agreements.

So, if 'Ripoff and Scarper Cotton Imports of Bristol' have done a deal with 'Dixie Lee Cotton Exports of Baltimore' for the supply of cotton, then ships owned or contracted by one or both of these companies would be transporting cotton bales from the warehouses where they are stored in Baltimore to the warhouses that are destined to receive them in Bristol.

Consequently, if either Bristol or Baltimore is blockaded then the trade is effectively cut-off, either because the ships carrying the goods can't leave or enter port, or because the ships owned by the contractors can't put to sea.

In theory, 'R&S' could arrange to have the cotton delivered to London and transported overland to the warehouses in Bristol, but that would increase their costs no end and instead they are more likely to moan to their local MP about the appaling state of the navy and wait for someone to sort it out.

What is not very satisfactory is that in practice these private contracts would exist between companies in every trading port of both countries. So, if the French only blockaded Bristol then it would only cut off those trade contracts with companies based in Bristol. Those based in London would continue to trade without affect. So, a blockade ought to just reduce the trade in proportion to the number of ports owned and the number blockaded, rather than be a total blockade based on a single port.

[Servius]

Yes, protectorate income appears under "Other Revenue" in the National Summary page.

No, if one of your trade ports in New World is blockaded, that does not cause all trade from that theatre to be blocked. It's an interface problem. The Trade page makes it look like all of the goods being shipped to your home region are being blocked because the entire line shows red instead of just the units that normally would be shipped from the blockaded port and are too far from another port to be shipped out through them.

For example, if you're GB, you've got sugar coming in from the Bahamas and Jamaica, furs from Rupert's land, and let's say cotton from Georgia and Carolina. If Jamaica's trade port gets blocked, the Trade screen will show all exports from the American theatre. However, you'll still export goods to your trade partners. This is only possible because the sugar from the Bahamas, the furs from Rupert's Land, and the cotton from Georgia and Carolina are still making it to London and then on to your trade partners. Only the sugar from Jamaica is not getting through.

A different example. Let's say both Georgia and Carolina have trade ports, and that the Georgian port is being blockaded. In this case, the cotton from Georgia will be diverted to the trade port in Carolina (so long as the Carolina trade port has the capacity to export that many units. Assuming it does, you will still see all red from the American theatre in the Trade window, but in actuallity, all of your exports from that theatre are still getting through to London and then on to your trade partners.

So, like I said, it's an interface problem. The way the Trade screen shows you that one of your ports is being blockaded is not very helpful. It gives you the impression that ALL trade from that theatre is blocked, which is false, and it does not show you which goods, or how many of them, are not getting through, nor does it tell you which of your trade ports is blockaded. This is exactly the opposite on the Export side of the Trade screen. That one will tell you which trade relationship is being hindered, which makes it a lot easier for you to know which trade port is being blockaded.