Ancient chainmail

Originally Posted by Vasiliyi

and where would you purchase this? Oh and does anyone know a good informative website or book for celtic mail? I find it hard to find anything worth reading, as most of it just has a paragraph about it and then talks about the Romans.

You are right, there are quite a lot about Celts but not much on the mail they wore. Not to fear, heres a picture I have of mail from a votive deposit at Tiefenau (where, reportedly, around 100 two-handed swords were found)...


...the Ciumesti chainmail was apparently folded, rolled, and adorned with rosettes of bronze. I do not have a clear picture of this chainmail up close on my HD, so here it is in its, uh, crumpled glory...


...other depictions of Celtic mail can be found of the Pergamon Arch...


...the Vacheres statue. This could show a Gallic noble or a Gallic auxila...


...this is a Gaul in what could be chainmail from Civita Alba...


...and the Kirkburn mail shirt, a reconstruction.


I hope this helps you see the possible styles, varieties, etc... that existed here and there in Celtica

I have a suit of mail myself, but I have not completed my Gallic warrior kit just yet. I promise I will post pics when I am done, though it will not be as good as Vasiliyi's chainmail progression pics. Great job, Vasiliyi, and I am envious that you have time to make your own suit from the beginning!

Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

My, my, what a hunk! A true Russian bogatyr'

No kidding, you do look quite very handsome, much better than in your other photo.

Haha thanks for the compliment, I guess.

Originally Posted by Power2the1

You are right, there are quite a lot about Celts but not much on the mail they wore. Not to fear, heres a picture I have of mail from a votive deposit at Tiefenau
(where, reportedly, around 100 two-handed swords were found)...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

...the Ciumesti chainmail was apparently folded, rolled, and adorned with rosettes of bronze. I do not have a clear picture of this chainmail up close on my HD, so here it is in its, uh, crumpled glory...


...other depictions of Celtic mail can be found of the Pergamon Arch...


...the Vacheres statue. This could show a Gallic noble or a Gallic auxila...


...this is a Gaul in what could be chainmail from Civita Alba...


...and the Kirkburn mail shirt, a reconstruction.

I hope this helps you see the possible styles, varieties, etc... that existed here and there in Celtica

I have a suit of mail myself, but I have not completed my Gallic warrior kit just yet. I promise I will post pics when I am done, though it will not be as good as Vasiliyi's chainmail progression pics. Great job, Vasiliyi, and I am envious that you have time to make your own suit from the beginning!

Excellent. Im looking forward to seeing your work of art. what kind of metal are you using? What size? How are you connecting your rings, are they riveted or butted?

Well, since you asked.....

I ordered my suit butted, ID about 1/4, 16 gauge steel, and zinc coated so as to prevent rust for an extra long time. The zinc coating does make the armor a bit shinier than I thought so I plan to darken it a little and see how that work, and if not, I will remove the zinc myself to give it a raw steel look. I also want to remove the most or all of the sleeves (the sleeves come down the wrist so its unhistorical from what we know), and use that extra mail from the sleeves as shoulder protection/doubler assuming the sleeves provide enough mail to make the doubler.

I will have to order the leather to pad/border the edge areas of the mail, and I plan to weld the rings on the shoulder and armpit areas as the shoulder area supports a lot of the mail's weight and the armpit areas because I have read that butted mail likes to come apart there more than other places. However, its true that to help take weight off the shoulder area you should wear a good belt. Next will come the plaid linen pants, plaid wool or linen shirt, and plain off white linen undershirt when I get around to ordering the fabric. I've chosen an Agen-Port helmet to wear. My kit will certainly be used for fighting, but my group is with Dagorhir so it will not be real metal weapons taking swings at my mail lol (besides, I do not want to extensively damage my gear, it can be expen$ive repairing everything!).

So you ordered the galvanized steel. You need not worry about darkening it up. The stuff wears off real quick. Infact, I used galvanized 16 gauge galvanized steel aswell and most of my shirt has already rubbed the zinc off (without me even trying).

For the shoulders, I just doubled up, making it more comfortable for me and giving it extra strength.

Ah, I understand. That is good news then, I'll just wait for it to wear off and get a little bit darker. How many months did it take before you noticed the zinc wearing off?

Originally Posted by Power2the1

Ah, I understand. That is good news then, I'll just wait for it to wear off and get a little bit darker. How many months did it take before you noticed the zinc wearing off?

Well im not sure what it would be like for you, as I made my own. I believe the constant friction of the rings while I was working on it sped up the process. That and I did physically attach each ring to the next one. But id say a few weeks maybe? 3-4 possibly, but i guess it would depend on how often you wear it. I make it a personal rule to wear it when I play EB, to get used to it.

I make it a personal rule to wear it when I play EB, to get used to it.

...You're awesome.

Originally Posted by Vaal

...You're awesome.

An awesome addict, lol.

Originally Posted by Lovejoy

How fat have you come? I want regular updates!

Thats a bit personal ;)

I was tempted to buy some chain mail but for some reason I went and bought a suit of Lorica Segmenta.

Originally Posted by Vasiliyi

I find it hard to find anything worth reading, as most of it just has a paragraph about it and then talks about the Romans.

Poor celts.

Originally Posted by Vasiliyi

I make it a personal rule to wear it when I play EB, to get used to it.

Thats Awesome. Be like likinos from ur AAR and wear it for 7 days strait lol.

Originally Posted by Vasiliyi

and where would you purchase this? Oh and does anyone know a good informative website or book for celtic mail? I find it hard to find anything worth reading, as most of it just has a paragraph about it and then talks about the Romans.

This is the book you're looking for:

Leif Hansen, Die Panzerung der Kelten: eine diachrone und interkulturelle Untersuchung eisenzeitlicher Rüstungen (Keil: L. Hansen, 2003)

If only I could read in German....

Well, little progress has happened since the last time ive posted. I managed to finish the sleeves, and now im working on the shoulder padding. I doubt ill finish it before saturday though, when I plan to go to a local Renaissance festival.


(note that i am missing a helmet, shield and spear)

I looked through www.europabarbarorum.com and I found unit of Arjos who was wearing a red shirt, and I copied him, and of course, im going to be wearing pajama pants, because that is what the Celts wore.

Anyways, thanks to all who commented, and I have to tell you, if you do make your own Mail, you wont regret it.

Great job! When you make the doubler/shoulder protection, consider edging it with some leather. It looks extra nice then, but both are historical though so its your preference.

If you do, however, it might take you a while (at least it did for me) as I did it by hand (as they did not have leather sewing machines back then), even making the holes by hand for the needle and flax thread.

sweet!

say, can you also make a helmet to go along with your fine suite? it woul be beautiful to look at.

I don't really think that mail is anything more than for show, good rivetted mail is usually much thicker and also the only good way to afford protection, together with decent padding of course.

But Power2the1's woes and concerns in keeping and purchasing mail show why it is such a restricted armour in the EB timeframe. It required an amount of wealth alone to buy, and to maintain, that pre-supposed a wealthy livelihood off trade or farming, something which even the average Joe nowadays barely can afford. The best comparison with buying mail today is buying and fixing a relatively mid tier car, which is not for everyone at everytime.

Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name

But Power2the1's woes and concerns in keeping and purchasing mail show why it is such a restricted armour in the EB timeframe. It required an amount of wealth alone to buy, and to maintain, that pre-supposed a wealthy livelihood off trade or farming, something which even the average Joe nowadays barely can afford. The best comparison with buying mail today is buying and fixing a relatively mid tier car, which is not for everyone at everytime.

I am trying to find time 2 make make my Botaroas shield. I might post it on here if i can figure out how. Chainmail is way far away.

Btw: Does anyone know the proportions for it?

Heres several pics of me in my incomplete Gallic warrior kit. I am building it as a mix of different things from all over Celtica such as having the Pergamon frieze styled doubler, but having the leather edging from the Vacheres Statue.



Heres my helmet. Though is is an early picture, I've since padded in dome with foam and the leather cheek pieces have a small oval shaped foam pad covered by leather that outlines the shape of the cheek piece (for now I've no access to wool from sheep. It can get expen$ive...). I still need my horsehair plume. I drilled two very small holes in the cheek pieces to pass two leather strips through. Similar to tying your shoes, you tie the cheek pieces together so they can fit nice and snug along your cheeks.

The Battle!

Here I am tying my helmet's cheek pieces together and talking about melee tactics with my Scots Highlander brother-in-law...


Awaiting honorable battle at the head of my warriors...

I was really waiting for the other team to assemble and get their plan of attack ready...

I soon achieved my notable and feared battle fury. As my longsword let loose their entrails, they were felled quickly...the head of my fallen foe later found a place upon the threshold of my great longhouse...

In reality this was a newcomer that I killed; their first time fighting so of course they were not experienced and they act mainly as fodder. Does it matter that it was a girl?

Expressing my triumphant rage, I raise my sword to Taranis the Thunderer for giving me the insight and strength to reach victory!

Actually, the helmet acts like blinders on a horse so its sometimes difficult to have good peripheral vision. As you can see someone is rushing up beside me with their sword drawn. Before i could turn to face them they slew me with two slashes to by back and side

Overall, I still need the linen pants and shirt and leather shoes (unless evidence is found where the Gauls invented denim shorts, cotton t-shirts, and leather boots hehe). My shield is in the process of being made and will be hexagonal in shape instead of oval and padded with stiff foam of course. My Gallic mustache is longer now so it strikes more fear and authority into the vassals that flock to my banner!

LOL get a balloon for it: .

Originally Posted by A Terribly Harmful Name

I don't really think that mail is anything more than for show, good rivetted mail is usually much thicker and also the only good way to afford protection, together with decent padding of course.

But Power2the1's woes and concerns in keeping and purchasing mail show why it is such a restricted armour in the EB timeframe. It required an amount of wealth alone to buy, and to maintain, that pre-supposed a wealthy livelihood off trade or farming, something which even the average Joe nowadays barely can afford. The best comparison with buying mail today is buying and fixing a relatively mid tier car, which is not for everyone at everytime.

In EB2, now that we can adjust the mail ratios, I do not think that any of the Gallic unit concepts feature 100% mailed units. Gauls mass produced things like pottery, but not mail. I would, however, wager that if the Romans left Gaul alone for another 2-3 generations, they certainly would have as well as formed states within tribal regions. Its was in the process of happening, but could not reach maturity.

Originally Posted by the man with no name

I am trying to find time 2 make make my Botaroas shield. I might post it on here if i can figure out how. Chainmail is way far away.

Btw: Does anyone know the proportions for it?

An overall measurement is to make the shield 3 feet or a little more in height (1 meter or so), and about 2 feet wide. However, remember that Celtic inspired shields came in all shapes and sizes, so you have some freedom to choose. There is certainly no one rule about their size!




If you want a clear cut historical example, look here:
http://www.myarmoury.com/nateb_othr_nate_shield3.html

This is the shield that he modeled his after:


Another description mentioned that this particular shield was:

A La Tene shield found at the actual La Tene site. Almost complete. This shield was roughly 1.1 meters long, and 1.2 cm thick at the center

Originally Posted by Power2the1

An overall measurement is to make the shield 3 feet or a little more in height (1 meter or so), and about 2 feet wide. However, remember that Celtic inspired shields came in all shapes and sizes, so you have some freedom to choose. There is certainly no one rule about their size!


If you want a clear cut historical example, look here:
http://www.myarmoury.com/nateb_othr_nate_shield3.html

Another description mentioned that this particular shield was:

Thanks for the info dude. Good luck with that Celtic Kit.