Abortion Debate (As Scheduled)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

This seems to be a very interesting statistic. Though the vast majority of Americans approve of abortion in certain circumstances, it would appear that Americans are moving more to the cautious edge of defining certain circumstances.

I approve.

[Kadagar_AV]

Uh...

You should not be allowed to even control your own body, or what? You are not entitled to decide when you want offspring or not?

Interesting perspective.

If not for abortions I'd be a dad. Thank GOD I am not.

[Marshal Murat]

EMFM - I'd like to point out that while many Americans are now pro-life, they haven't all come around to the whole "let's ban abortions" thing yet. Which is a nice moderation from my point of view.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

EMFM - I'd like to point out that while many Americans are now pro-life, they haven't all come around to the whole "let's ban abortions" thing yet. Which is a nice moderation from my point of view.

Exactly what the poll says. Most Americans are pro-life, and yet most Americans are also in favour of abortions in some circumstances. This coincides rather nicely with my position (secular pro-life with abortions legal only in certain cases).

You should not be allowed to even control your own body, or what?

A fundamental opinion behind the pro-life movement is that a fetus isn't your own body.

You are not entitled to decide when you want offspring or not?

Yes. You should have made that decision earlier though.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes. You should have made that decision earlier though.

Ok... so condom bursting, vomiting when on birth control pills.. Those are not valid reasons?

basicly what you are saying is that one should wait having sex untill married to avoid complications? Welcome to the year 2000.


I'll use myself as an example...

Scenario 1: I make a girl pregnant, she gives birth. We are not right for each other, we try a couple of years but it fails. Child is left fatherless/motherless or perhaps has to grow up with two parents hating each other. Alternatively has to spend every other week/year/whatever in Austria and England.

Scenario 2: I make a girl pregnant, she does NOt give birth. We split up, she now has a child and is married, I have a new girlfriend.

Now, explain why scenario 1 is better than scenario 2?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Ok... so condom bursting, vomiting when on birth control pills.. Those are not valid reasons?

basicly what you are saying is that one should wait having sex untill married to avoid complications?

No, I'm saying one should assume the potential responsibility of sex. I'm willing to consider first trimester abortions for birth control purposes (on the condition that you pay for them yourself), but that's all.

Now, explain why scenario 1 is better than scenario 2?

The child is alive and has a shot at life?

[KarlXII]

Scenario 1: I make a girl pregnant, she gives birth. We are not right for each other, we try a couple of years but it fails. Child is left fatherless/motherless or perhaps has to grow up with two parents hating each other. Alternatively has to spend every other week/year/whatever in Austria and England.

Scenario 2: I make a girl pregnant, she does NOt give birth. We split up, she now has a child and is married, I have a new girlfriend.

This isn't the 70s. We know the risks of sex, both in pregnancy and diseases, and therefore must act more resonsibly about the consequences. If you don't want to be a father and decide to go have sex with a girl without taking the proper prevention, then you KNOW the risks, and if you get her pregnant, it is YOUR responsibility.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't forget about the Soviet ape soldiers...

Scenario 1: I make a girl pregnant, she gives birth. We are not right for each other, we try a couple of years but it fails. Child is left fatherless/motherless or perhaps has to grow up with two parents hating each other. Alternatively has to spend every other week/year/whatever in Austria and England.

Scenario 2: I make a girl pregnant, she does NOt give birth. We split up, she now has a child and is married, I have a new girlfriend.

Now, explain why scenario 1 is better than scenario 2?

Scenario A: I make a girl pregnant, she gives birth. We are not right for each other, we try a couple of years but it fails. Child is left fatherless/motherless or perhaps has to grow up with two parents hating each other. Alternatively has to spend every other week/year/whatever in Austria and England.

Scenario B: I make a girl pregnant, she gives birth. So we kill the infant, we split up, she now has another child and is married, I have a new girlfriend.

Now, explain why scenario A is better than scenario B?

[Lemur]

This seems to be a very interesting statistic. Though the vast majority of Americans approve of abortion in certain circumstances, it would appear that Americans are moving more to the cautious edge of defining certain circumstances.

Not to step on CA's more serious poll-smoking, but apparently there are problems with that Gallup poll. Makes sense; why would Americans' opinions shift so much in just a year?

The nuance that I've written about recently deals with the simple fact that Americans seem to care quite a bit why a woman seeks an abortion. And once they are aware of a plausible rationale, anti-abortion attitudes appear to relax.

The best example comes from 2003, at the very height of one of the congressional battles over so-called "partial-birth" abortions. The very same ABC poll that showed 62% of Americans favoring a ban on these much-demonized procedures also showed that 61% favored a "health of the mother" exception, even in these cases.

It's an article of faith among right-to-lifers, of course, that a "health exception" makes a mockery of any abortion restrictions. And that's why in a famous moment in one of the presidential debates last year, John McCain sneered and held up "quote marks" when referring to a "health exception." The public reaction was not positive, indicating that abstract hostility towards abortion may well disguise a more sympathetic attitude when it comes to actual women making actual decisions about a pregnancy. To put it another way, who cares if there's a shift towards self-reported "pro-life" sentiments, if consistent majorities basically approve of the constitutional and legal status quo?

In any event, it's maddening that so few polls on abortion get into these sorts of questions. Until they do, we are all entitled to dismiss the big headlines, and rely on hard data like election results to determine which basic direction in abortion policy Americans tend to support. Based on that data, the anti-abortion cause is not doing very well.