EBII Cataphract Formation

[antisocialmunky]

Would it be fitting in the EB time period to give certain horse units a formation that makes them get close together so they can deliver a more powerful charge?

The wedge is nice but it never really works rights in the engine and seldom worth it so this might be a worthwhile change.

Also, any discussion on how to better represent period cavalry tactics would be nice. EBI was a bit too impacty for my tastes.

[Puupertti Ruma]

It would be quite awesome to see actual fluid cavalry action, with horsemen swooping to hit a man then backing up to safety just to lunge back to the fray. Instead of making a charge, and after that just stop, and stand amongst the enemies just hacking away, while the enemies hack him.

[Ludens]

Also, any discussion on how to better represent period cavalry tactics would be nice. EBI was a bit too impacty for my tastes.

I think the problem with altering combat dynamics is the way the A.I. deals with this. It is all very well if you change cavalry to be more suited for skirmishing and less for charging, but that's not going to do much good if the A.I. still insists on using them as a battering ram.

[Watchman]

'Sides, from what I know period horse did their skirmishing with javelins and such and charged in earnest when they did - preferably at flanks or rear (FOR CRITICAL DAMAGE), as frontal assaults against steady close-order infantry had a bad habit of either falling short as the horses themselves hit the brakes (potentially leaving the whole squadron floundedring and open to a swift counter-charge by the infantry) or getting repulsed with casualties if they managed to press home but not break the opposition.

In which case in EB1 at least all the necessary "skirmishing" comes from the immediate double-click fallback the alert player pulls to disengage his horse from the fight before they suffer too much...

[antisocialmunky]

I meant do better in melee rather than have most cavalry doing massive damage in the charge. Maybe tone down the impact damage except for all but the super heavy cavalry and increase melee a little bit. The AI isn't particularly good at telling its horses to pull out anyways and even light cavalry can mess up your day with a quick devastating charge.

:-\

Also, I don't think anyone's figured out a good way to make horses charge through stuff. I saw the implementation in stainless steel but battles involving cavalry turned into hopeless messes since horses ran everywhere and any notion of order exploded as the horses engaged each otehr and everything in a 100m radius.

[Watchman]

I dunno, from what I gather most cav - in any period really - was rather better at doing damage at the charge (although in most cases the impact was above all *psychological* - hard to put that in the game though) than even surviving extended melee with unbroken infantry... around the only exception that springs to mind would be some iterations of cataphract-style fully armed horse.

[Cute Wolf]

M2TW cav will fare really better, because they're now automatically switch to their secondary sidearm.... (no more pointy stick combat)

[antisocialmunky]

:-\ alot of times the pointy stick was better because it had AP.

[Cute Wolf]

and pointy stick combat cause death against levy spearmen... or even a very same type of horsemen that have also ap secondary...

[Watchman]

Doesn't even need to be AP, depending on the unit involved. Though I must say that in EB1 I've found it very effective to swamp Eastern FamiCav catas with those axe-wielding dudes in shirts on horseback - the kontos being all but useless in melee against that sort of warrior.

[russia almighty]

Doesn't even need to be AP, depending on the unit involved. Though I must say that in EB1 I've found it very effective to swamp Eastern FamiCav catas with those axe-wielding dudes in shirts on horseback - the kontos being all but useless in melee against that sort of warrior.

Kontos wielding units with any experience are pretty freaking monstrous.

I had one unit of companions that just ate anything thrown at them. 10 attack man, 10 attack.

[antisocialmunky]

Doesn't even need to be AP, depending on the unit involved. Though I must say that in EB1 I've found it very effective to swamp Eastern FamiCav catas with those axe-wielding dudes in shirts on horseback - the kontos being all but useless in melee against that sort of warrior.

True but its been my observation that with heavy cav vs heavy cav, sometimes the spear works better than the secondary weapon if that secondary has no AP. I've been trying to figure that out forever... Is it spear bonus/mount effect + AP?

Medium cav just evaporates vs Heavy cav unless its ridiculously high end like Campanians even those Thracian Prodromoi with those AP sabres die horribly....

[bobbin]

The big cavalry lances in the game (Kontos etc) have 0.4 lethality along with AP and the spear bonus which combines to make them very powerful against cavalry units.

I personally would never change to the secondary weapon when engaging other cavalry as the spears are usually far more effective.

ps Thraikioi Prodromoi's sabres aren't AP, they have 2 higher attack and 0.01 less lethality compared to the normal Prodromoi swords.

That said they do look absolutely bad ass.

[Watchman]

Spear bonus ? Like Hell they do. Only infantry gets that, period. The cavalry lances just get crazy-high lethality values, to go with some hardcore attack-speed penalties and AP - decent enough for dealing with armoured opponents I guess (though I'm pretty sure at least maces are a better option, and usually kopises too), but nigh useless against hordes of unarmoured foes relying mostly on high defskill.

[Atraphoenix]

I prefer square formation for charges it makes more damage than wedge.
Plus For Pahlava breakthrough is the worst logical tactic that favours wedge formation.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, I usually do a 3 deep formation for attacking and a square for maneuvering in true STW HA fashion. Wedge is aways bugged since TW has never had a true representation of physics and mass and stops after the first three men hit(the only use I ever found for it was to hit between 2 units).

That's why I'm suggesting changing wedge to a denser brick so that it'll be useful. I've heard of Cataphracts lining up 'knee to knee' but I'm not sure if dense formations like you see in depictions of later cavalry units(Knights and Hussars) are what its refering to.

[bobbin]

Spear bonus ? Like Hell they do. Only infantry gets that, period. The cavalry lances just get crazy-high lethality values, to go with some hardcore attack-speed penalties and AP - decent enough for dealing with armoured opponents I guess (though I'm pretty sure at least maces are a better option, and usually kopises too), but nigh useless against hordes of unarmoured foes relying mostly on high defskill.

Oops my bad, must have been dozing when i typed that. Maces and axes are better than the lance but i find kopises a bit too weak for the job(usually have low lethality), those nasty pickaxe things the saka cataphtacts get are pretty effective as well.

[Atraphoenix]

Though Parthian Cataphract has AP maces, I found no difference with Parthian Noble Ctaphracts' swords. In fact I use archer cataphracts. more casulty they cause but of course they got tired more.
And the worst tactic for them (Parthian Armoured Horse archers/ Archer cataphracts or cataphract archers) cantabrian circle. Though I cannot remember they had it or not.

[antisocialmunky]

Really, it is. They are heavily armored exactly so they can just sit and shoot. I actually used my general as a decoy in my Parthian campaigns since I couldn't afford any heavy HAs.

[Watchman]

IIRC at some point in the past I entirely removed the wedge from the EDU, because it sucks under the engine. Human players are too smart to use it, and when the AI tries to it just nerfs its cav...

Ditto for the Circle from any unit with armoured horses. Nobody in their right mind tires his warhorse out like that, after all.

[Alsatia]

I'd rather square formation becuse wedge is just a bit stupid. Especially with your FM's, normally charging with wedge gives an 80% chance of killing your FM (unless vs missile). An alternative would be nice.

[russia almighty]

I hate to be a necromancer (speaking of which I'm going to confess after this), but, in real life, what was the purpose of the wedge formation?

[Puupertti Ruma]

I'd rather square formation becuse wedge is just a bit stupid. Especially with your FM's, normally charging with wedge gives an 80% chance of killing your FM (unless vs missile). An alternative would be nice.

But the FM's have the rally ability, not wedge. Right? Or is it different in MTW2? I guess I should install and play it, as it has been on my shelf for almost a year...

[antisocialmunky]

I hate to be a necromancer (speaking of which I'm going to confess after this), but, in real life, what was the purpose of the wedge formation?

To break through enemy lines.

[Alsatia]

Well, that's a programming failure. Wedge does almost nothing except for placement.