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Thread: Catholic Church in deeep water.
I feel for any and all people of faith who have nothing to do with this. I might be non-religious but I don't auto-equate religion with child molestation and abuse.
However, the lack of proper reform and lack of leadership by the Vatican on this makes me quite angry. I would not miss the Roman Catholic Church if it decided to take it's massive wealth and pay to be blasted into space to meet their God.
However, the lack of proper reform and lack of leadership by the Vatican on this makes me quite angry. I would not miss the Roman Catholic Church if it decided to take it's massive wealth and pay to be blasted into space to meet their God.
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
I feel for any and all people of faith who have nothing to do with this. I might be non-religious but I don't auto-equate religion with child molestation and abuse.
However, the lack of proper reform and lack of leadership by the Vatican on this makes me quite angry. I would not miss the Roman Catholic Church if it decided to take it's massive wealth and pay to be blasted into space to meet their God.
I feel for any and all people of faith who have nothing to do with this. I might be non-religious but I don't auto-equate religion with child molestation and abuse.
However, the lack of proper reform and lack of leadership by the Vatican on this makes me quite angry. I would not miss the Roman Catholic Church if it decided to take it's massive wealth and pay to be blasted into space to meet their God.
Nah. but a billion others probabaly would.
Originally Posted by :
Surely that leads to the question then of why on earth the Catholic Church is receiving such protection from the Irish government?
Because they did a deal with Bertie and his crooks , hand over prime development land to the State for Berties "business" friends to have for nothing and then get indemnity from prosecution . Well not exactly indemnity its just that the church won't have to pay because they nominally gave their assets to the State not the developers so its the State that has to pay ...which means its the taxpayers who will have to pay an since Berties legacy means taxpayers are getting in short supply it means there is no money to pay for any settlements . Surely that leads to the question then of why on earth the Catholic Church is receiving such protection from the Irish government?
So since it is the State that deals with prosecutions , the State which will have to fund both prosecution and defence and the State which will have to pay the penalties the State ain't gonna do bugger all .
Originally Posted by Default the Magyar:
Nah. but a billion others probabaly would.
More like a few millions.Nah. but a billion others probabaly would.
An appalling case of abuse and complicity.
It does however make me think that if the Church wishes to survive as an institution, it must abolish celibacy, a most unnatural state of affairs, construed by the Church in the early Middle Ages so that it did not have to support priests' wives as well as priests, and which lies at the root of all these crimes.
It does however make me think that if the Church wishes to survive as an institution, it must abolish celibacy, a most unnatural state of affairs, construed by the Church in the early Middle Ages so that it did not have to support priests' wives as well as priests, and which lies at the root of all these crimes.
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
Um... no reform has taken place. They are still protecting members and covering it up, today. Read the article.
An organization with top officials who know about this and do nothing... that's not the same as not being saints. That's patently obvious.
These abuses have been going on for decades, and this is just another example.
How did I know you would knee-jerk react and defend the church? There is no criticism that can be leveled at a religious organization and have it be legitimate to you, is there? It's in black and white.
Damn, dude.
The Catholic Church has a powerful heirarchy which makes it very difficult to report on your superiors. At the same the Roman Church, wrongly, adopted a "don't ask, don't tell, close ranks" attitude to abuses. Part of the problem is inherent in Roman doctrine, which emphasises harsh punishment on the one hand and forgiveness on the other.Um... no reform has taken place. They are still protecting members and covering it up, today. Read the article.
An organization with top officials who know about this and do nothing... that's not the same as not being saints. That's patently obvious.
These abuses have been going on for decades, and this is just another example.
How did I know you would knee-jerk react and defend the church? There is no criticism that can be leveled at a religious organization and have it be legitimate to you, is there? It's in black and white.
Damn, dude.
So a priest is either let off, or defrocked, excomunicated, banned from communion for life and possibly denied the last rights. The Roman Catholic Church has a policy of trying to get as many souls into heaven as possible. In view of which, they dislike harsh punishments for anything other than heresy; in which they use as harsh a punishement as possible.
You are the one who has had a "knee-jerk" reaction, not me. The "top official" is the Pope, and you have to get past your geographical hierarchy and your Order to get to him. This has been a difficulty for about 500-700 years, and it stems from the creation of the Papal Curia as a monarchial court. The reforms enacted then were in order to allow the Papacy to tighten standards of pastoral care and conduct throughout the Church. Ironically, the measures backfired when it became possible for degenerates to hold Papal Office.
Unfortunately, the "Reformation" failed and this is still the situation we are stuck with.
Originally Posted by King Henry V:
An appalling case of abuse and complicity.
It does however make me think that if the Church wishes to survive as an institution, it must abolish celibacy, a most unnatural state of affairs, construed by the Church in the early Middle Ages so that it did not have to support priests' wives as well as priests, and which lies at the root of all these crimes.
To be fair, it wasn't about their wives (certainly not in England), it was about them grooming their sons to take over their benefices. The Church was turning into a second feudal aristocracy; and that was seriously damaging clerical standards of behaviour, pastoral care and education.An appalling case of abuse and complicity.
It does however make me think that if the Church wishes to survive as an institution, it must abolish celibacy, a most unnatural state of affairs, construed by the Church in the early Middle Ages so that it did not have to support priests' wives as well as priests, and which lies at the root of all these crimes.
However, none of these are likely to become issues today.
I would say the best course would be to allow married Deacons to take higher Orders, I don't think priests should really be allowed to have girlfriends and "date". Personally I'm of the belief all priests should be married, as a life partner is an invaluable support in such a vocation; also, it helps to have someone else to run the Parish Bake Sale.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
You are the one who has had a "knee-jerk" reaction, not me.
You're half right. When I see horrible systemic abuses of children, my reaction is to condemn.You are the one who has had a "knee-jerk" reaction, not me.
However, you are being ridiculous if you think your reaction isn't knee-jerk. I cannot find a better term for it. You seem to want to defend the church no matter what its crimes and offer apologist's explanations. The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
You're half right. When I see horrible systemic abuses of children, my reaction is to condemn.
However, you are being ridiculous if you think your reaction isn't knee-jerk. I cannot find a better term for it. You seem to want to defend the church no matter what its crimes and offer apologist's explanations. The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.
I don't know how many times I have to explain this, I am an Anglo-Catholic, not a Roman Catholic.You're half right. When I see horrible systemic abuses of children, my reaction is to condemn.
However, you are being ridiculous if you think your reaction isn't knee-jerk. I cannot find a better term for it. You seem to want to defend the church no matter what its crimes and offer apologist's explanations. The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.
Your solution to a problem which is an old one, and already largely dealt with, was to call for the dissolution of the Roman Catholic Church. That is a knee-jerk reaction, with no thought to the consequences.
The fact is that it would only take about 20 Cardinals, bishops and Chapter heads to cover something like this up, aside from the abusers themselves.
Now, many Catholics have called for reform, but if they shout too loudly they will follow Luthor and argueably do very little good. The Church has been resistant to change for about 500 years, because they believe that changes they make impact on the number of people going to heaven. Heterodoxy can be deemed heresy when it challenges the heirarchy directly, and the problem become still greater when you consider that the Cardinal you are attacking might become Pope.
The Catholic Church is an institution more than 1,700 years old, with more that 1 Billion members, it is the largest religion in the world, and the largest charity. To say, "It has to go" is naive, because it isn't going anywhere.
So, rather than throwing around unrealistic suggestions, why don't you try to think a little more calmly and reasonably.
Originally Posted by Meneldil:
More like a few millions.
Awsome, just awsome, almost as awsome as the mighty Lions of Israel who also post ridiculous "facts".More like a few millions.
Originally Posted by :
The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.
That is frikin awsome, hey gay people don't be part of such a corrupted sexual grouping, the higher bollox of the Church says so!!!The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.
Originally Posted by :
The problem is that they're part of an organisation which preaches the so called "right moral behaviour".
Right, step back, think and truly understand the **** in that post, like some mighty wizard you have descended upon us with your amazing insight...The problem is that they're part of an organisation which preaches the so called "right moral behaviour".
Oh please, stop the stuff about the moral code, you live in a society right? You understand how that works right?
Originally Posted by :
Fear not Seamus, I have a great loathing for any large group. In the end, they all ultimately become a bunch of bullies. That is why I am not a member of any group, or if I am (such as this forum) I am a casual member who retains his independence to an annoying and frustrating degree. Groups, to be honest, tend to behave poorly towards anyone not in that group. I hate groups.
You live in a society right? You have a group of friends right? So bollox to all of it mate.Fear not Seamus, I have a great loathing for any large group. In the end, they all ultimately become a bunch of bullies. That is why I am not a member of any group, or if I am (such as this forum) I am a casual member who retains his independence to an annoying and frustrating degree. Groups, to be honest, tend to behave poorly towards anyone not in that group. I hate groups.
Originally Posted by Default the Magyar:
You live in a society right? You have a group of friends right? So bollox to all of it mate.
There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.You live in a society right? You have a group of friends right? So bollox to all of it mate.
Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.
The Catholic Church requires conformity and groupthink? Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics...There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.
...all of whom have differing opinions, however major or minor, on politics, religion, and pretty much everything else...
In my opinion you are either ignorant or a step away from bigotry. I doubt it is the former, and I don't want to believe it is the latter.
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
The Catholic Church requires conformity and groupthink? Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics..
The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.The Catholic Church requires conformity and groupthink? Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics..
That would be the very example of conformity I am referring to. As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
Conformity and groupthink? I don't know how to respond to such wacky claims.
Certainly not with with consideration.Conformity and groupthink? I don't know how to respond to such wacky claims.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
1. no explanation as to why you assert that.
2. no explanation as to why you assert that.
3. no explanation as to why it is "bollox".
Hardly a debate, but more a pissing contest.
I can take the hint fellas, you disagree and perhaps you don't like me personally. But I at least attempt to respond to your opposing positions with an open mind and I take the time to read your posts and if I disagree, I state why.
If you won't do me the same courtesy, that's fine, but it's laughable to call it a debate at that point.
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.
Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.
There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.
Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.
Oh, you.
Conformity and groupthink? I don't know how to respond to such wacky claims.
Originally Posted by :
Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics...
No need, silly. We are the borg. We already know.Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics...
CR
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.
Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.
being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.
Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.
Awwww, I was thoughtless...
Now, lets look at these two statements, what can I derive from them?
1. You do not understand the dynamics of society
2. Your assessment of the Catholic Church in the modern world is off-track.
3. You dislike my thoughtless way of calling you out on your bollox.
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