Catholic Church in deeep water.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.

That would be the very example of conformity I am referring to. As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.

So requiring Catholics to follow the rules of God is "demanding group conformity"? You could say the same thing about any group of people in the world. Beware! Book clubs require conformity!

At least you didn't try to defend the ridiculous "groupthink" allegation.

Certainly not with with consideration.

I consider only that worth considering.

1. no explanation as to why you assert that.

Because you don't. You act as though a group having rules members have to follow is some great evil.

2. no explanation as to why you assert that.

Because you are. You clearly know nothing of debates between Catholics that are ongoing on a range of subjects. You don't know of the official positions of the Church or what it's members believe.

3. no explanation as to why it is "bollox".

See above. For anyone in the know, it is clear.

I can take the hint fellas, you disagree and perhaps you don't like me personally. But I at least attempt to respond to your opposing positions with an open mind and I take the time to read your posts and if I disagree, I state why.

If you won't do me the same courtesy, that's fine, but it's laughable to call it a debate at that point.

Aww.... You just sit down now while I go get the fainting salts. Really, Pizzaguy, if you're gonna be in the backroom, you need to grow a thicker skin.

CR

[KukriKhan]

So requiring Catholics to follow the rules of God is "demanding group conformity"? You could say the same thing about any group of people in the world. Beware! Book clubs require conformity!

At least you didn't try to defend the ridiculous "groupthink" allegation.



I consider only that worth considering.




Because you don't. You act as though a group having rules members have to follow is some great evil.



Because you are. You clearly know nothing of debates between Catholics that are ongoing on a range of subjects. You don't know of the official positions of the Church or what it's members believe.



See above. For anyone in the know, it is clear.



Aww.... You just sit down now while I go get the fainting salts. Really, Pizzaguy, if you're gonna be in the backroom, you need to grow a thicker skin.

CR

Just to keep the bases covered, and before PizzaGuy responds, as I'm certain he will, let me ask this question, old friend:

You decry, in depth and ad infinitum in the Police Abuses thread, the misdeeds of law enforcers who abuse their authority and hurt people, AND their cohorts and superiors - indeed, the entire judicial system - for complicity in those abuses by people acting under color of authority. The "Blue Wall" if you will.

And yet, similar abusive behavior, by members of clergy, and subsequent coverups by their superiors - a "Black Wall", if you will - merits a mere shrug, and a claim that 'we're working on it, and you don't know what you're talking about, cuz you're not in the group'?

Sorry mate, you can't have it both ways. Abuse of power is abuse of power. Whether it's someone charged with saving our skin, or someone charged with saving our souls.

I'm with you on most issues, and I had to grit my teeth and sthu at your display in the Police thread, because I have no come-back for the volume of abuse you cite there. It's wrong, and we gotta fix it, quick.

To me, it's the same here: wrong has been done. People have been damaged. Fixing is imperative. Religion be damned. Exemptions be damned. Find and prosecute the damagers, and those who covered it up. Understanding the concept of "forgiveness" is irrelevant to my government's obligation to protect its citizens from abuse.

In my personal opinion.

[Crazed Rabbit]

You're right Kukri; the abuses and coverups of police and the Catholic Church in the past have many parallels. That's why I didn't post in this thread at first - it was depressing and I figured any of my posts lamenting the actions of the Church would add little.

And yet, similar abusive behavior, by members of clergy, and subsequent coverups by their superiors - a "Black Wall", if you will - merits a mere shrug, and a claim that 'we're working on it, and you don't know what you're talking about, cuz you're not in the group'?

I don't think that's quite right. When me and my fellows here were saying to Pizzaguy that he doesn't know what he's talking about it was in response to his farcical claims of the Catholic Church "demanding conformity and groupthink".

I did not say that the actions of the clergy warranted a shrug - it is disgusting and they deserve severe punishment.

To me, it's the same here: wrong has been done. People have been damaged. Fixing is imperative. Religion be damned. Exemptions be damned. Find and prosecute the damagers, and those who covered it up. Understanding the concept of "forgiveness" is irrelevant to my government's obligation to protect its citizens from abuse.

In my personal opinion.

Quite right. Justice demands punishment And in this instance as well, it appears the onus is on the government to punish the wrongdoers - something they are resisting in both instances.

CR

[KukriKhan]

You're right Kukri; the abuses and coverups of police and the Catholic Church in the past have many parallels....



... When me and my fellows here were saying to Pizzaguy that he doesn't know what he's talking about it was in response to his farcical claims of the Catholic Church "demanding conformity and groupthink".

I did not say that the actions of the clergy warranted a shrug - it is disgusting and they deserve severe punishment.



Quite right. Justice demands punishment And in this instance as well, it appears the onus is on the government to punish the wrongdoers - something they are resisting in both instances.

CR

My abject apologies then, for my misunderstanding. I agree that PizzaGuy has got the "demand" bit wrong.

You simply fail to see this because you have nothing to do with the community and are ignorant on its positions.

I would not bet the house on this allegation, however insightful you may think it is, Sir.

[Incongruous]

I would not bet the house on this allegation, however insightful you may think it is, Sir.

Betting is against my religion.

If I am wrong, why make it out as if Rabbit, and those of us with similar positions, were merley shrugging their shoulders? For you must know that this is in no way how we wish our Church to be run.

[KukriKhan]

Betting is against my religion.

If I am wrong, why make it out as if Rabbit, and those of us with similar positions, were merley shrugging their shoulders? For you must know that this is in no way how we wish our Church to be run.

Therein lies the key, my friend. Forgiveness of sin is one thing, and one applauded, exhalted and prescribed by the Savior. We must strive to understand the evil deeds done by men, for they are without bottom, and possible to we all.

Still... we must also 'render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's'. What is Ceasar's in this day and time is: Justice. Or the Administration of Justice. People hurting people, whether it's cops or priests, should be, and is punishable under law. Particularly, if that hurting happens under colour of authority.

It is quite clear, that:

...this is in no way how we wish our Church to be run.

What is also clear, is that you, or me, as an individual adherant of faith, have Bupkus to say about how we wish...

That is decided by people above our securlar pay-grade. And, as such, those folks are answerable to both god and ceasar.

imho

[Crazed Rabbit]

Lol.

I just got called a "despicable moron" and kicked out of a blog* for defending this article by Bill Donahue with this post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So sorry to interrupt the group hate here, but let's get some things straight.

1) He did not brush off the report. He only sought to put some of the hysteria in perspective, pointing out that the Reuters report was sensational. When did Reuters suddenly become so free of bias? He is concerned that the report demeans the real suffering went through by those who were raped by comparing it to getting a slap.

2) He obviously didn't say it all happened in the 1970s. I mean, not only is that taken out of context, but it wasn't even what he said, which was that 82% of the incidents took place before 1970. And he said that in relation to the allegations of physical abuse and lack of emotional attachment; because corporal punishment was more common back then and the 'touchy-feely' revolution hadn't taken over parenting. That doesn't excuse the physical abuse, it puts it in perspective; it happened in a different era with different social values. It also means the vast majority of the wrongdoing stopped happening almost four decades ago.

3) Nor does he say the abused deserved it. He pointed out corporal punishment was more frequent, especially when dealing with what we'd call juvenile delinquents.

4) Nor does he say all those abused were delinquents.

5) He also points out that only 1 in 8 offenders were Priests, so the Reuters headline is again misleading.

6) He correctly points out that the article throws in the numbers of all those not sexually assaulted while throwing around the term abuse - which creates the impression of the abuse being much more wide spread than it is.

Finally -
#15 You are reading it wrong. 30k kids passed through. The number of incidents is only a fraction of that. I'm not sure if the 12% is out of all the incidents or just the sexual-related ones, but it certainly isn't out of 30k kids.

To those claiming 'slapping' is abuse - do you report parents you see spanking their children to child protection services? Sheesh.

To finish, these abuse are of course disgusting. Those responsible must be punished. But I wrote this so that the truth of the matter would come out, and that these real evils done would not be overshadowed by fantastic (as in fantasy) allegations about the level of abuses.

Oh - one final thing. It is the Irish government, not the Church (who's clergy are saying the guilty should be punished before the law), that is refusing to prosecute these crimes.

CR

To which Monsieur blogger's reply was this:

It's amazing, but this is where it seems to be headed -- no matter how disgusting and evil the comments are from people like Donohue, invariably someone will turn up and make excuses for them.

To the despicable morons who are doing that in this thread, I've corrected my post to say "before the 1970s," so you can take your idiotic legalisms, fold them into sharp corners, and cram them into your nether orifices.

All quite exciting. And then I got banned.
EDIT: And this as well:

To the two creeps who just lost their accounts -- don't bother emailing me to complain or spew abuse. Any emails from you will be deleted without reading.

I guess the moral of the story is we should be glad we all have such good debating partners in the scheme of things, and be happy we are at an upstanding site based on killing thousands of little computer men for our pleasure and not some trashy world events site.

CR
*A shiny ballon to whoever guesses! I bet Lemur knows...

[Incongruous]

Just to keep the bases covered, and before PizzaGuy responds, as I'm certain he will, let me ask this question, old friend:

You decry, in depth and ad infinitum in the Police Abuses thread, the misdeeds of law enforcers who abuse their authority and hurt people, AND their cohorts and superiors - indeed, the entire judicial system - for complicity in those abuses by people acting under color of authority. The "Blue Wall" if you will.

And yet, similar abusive behavior, by members of clergy, and subsequent coverups by their superiors - a "Black Wall", if you will - merits a mere shrug, and a claim that 'we're working on it, and you don't know what you're talking about, cuz you're not in the group'?

Sorry mate, you can't have it both ways. Abuse of power is abuse of power. Whether it's someone charged with saving our skin, or someone charged with saving our souls.

I'm with you on most issues, and I had to grit my teeth and sthu at your display in the Police thread, because I have no come-back for the volume of abuse you cite there. It's wrong, and we gotta fix it, quick.

To me, it's the same here: wrong has been done. People have been damaged. Fixing is imperative. Religion be damned. Exemptions be damned. Find and prosecute the damagers, and those who covered it up. Understanding the concept of "forgiveness" is irrelevant to my government's obligation to protect its citizens from abuse.

In my personal opinion.

Bollox there is only a shrug of the shoulders, that viewpoint is endemic of having nothing to do with real Catholics and instead the card board cut out nutters society has come to expect.

"its wrong and we gotta fix it quick" probably sums the view of every fellow Catholic I know on the issue of child abuse, that includes my Priets.

You are saying exactly what most Catholics are saying, you know we are human, much as it must pain you to know it.

You simply fail to see this because you have nothing to do with the community and are ignorant on its positions.