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Thread: Emerging faction idea

  1. #1

    Default Emerging faction idea

    My idea for an emerging faction is an obvious one that should be helpful at countering Egypts complete dominance which it enjoyed in Rome Total War.

    Emerging faction-Judea

    Case for it-If somehow the Selucids aren't destroyed by Egypt it means against all odds they won that fight and needs a major crisis to prevent it from turning the campaign into a 2-3 nation campaign too early (don't you remember how none of your campaigns had many enemies? It became you good Romans or whoever you picked vs Egypt by the end for me at least). It should start as a Vassal of the Romans, but have relatively low actual loyalty and likely to backstab (if Romans are interested that means they are winning and need a problem, luckily this is historical :-) ).

    If Egypt is winning they need to be prevented from repeating Total War History, and good way to slow them down is to sick the a historical emerging factioin on them.

    History Case for it-Immortalized in a modern Jewish Holiday the Jews rebelled against the rule of the Selucids for a wide variety of reasons. The result was a very long war where both sides failed to achieve decisive victory, untill the Romans stepped in and recognized Judea, and untill a Selucid Civil war put the patch of land being fought for into perspective.

    Units-I am not an expert in Jewish history, I have no clue what units they would be given, perhaps the Jewish Zealot like in the original Rome Total War?

    I apologize for the poor presentation, and for appearing to be asking for a minor faction for gameplay reasons, and I further apologize to anyone who may be so thin skinned he/she/it is offended for any reason.

  2. #2
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Emerging faction idea

    Hmm... this was using 1 slot as waste... but this Judean faction will be better represented if we pick them at the start as Seleucid's Protectorate... (And then rebelled as Baktria)

    Perhaps Hooahguy can help us...

    According to Wikipedia:

    The Maccabees (Hebrew: מכבים‎ or מקבים, Makabim or Maqabim; Greek Μακκαβαῖοι, /makav'εï/) were a Jewish national liberation movement that fought for and won independence from Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Hellenistic Seleucid dynasty, who was succeeded by his infant son Antiochus V Eupator. The Maccabees founded the Hasmonean royal dynasty and established Jewish independence in the Hasmonean Kingdom for about one hundred years, from 164 BCE to 63 BCE.
    That means that we couldn't use Maccabeid family as the Starting FM's (But then, we could use script to spawn them, and use "Teutonic"ish republican system instead)

    Judea in the 2nd century BCE lay between Egypt and the Seleucid empire, states descended from the break up of Alexander the Great’s Greek empire. Since the rule of Alexander in 336-323 BCE, a process of Hellenization had spread through the near East. When Antiochus IV Epiphanes (ca. 215–164 BCE), became ruler of the Seleucid Empire in 175 BCE, Hellenizing Jews had been long-established in Judea. They had built a gymnasium, competed internationally in Greek games, "removed their marks of circumcision and repudiated the holy covenant". (1 Maccabees, i, 15. See also Antinomianism in the Books of the Maccabees).

    Conflict over the appointment of the High Priest and corruption contributed to the causes of the Maccabean Revolt. The High Priest in Jerusalem was Onias III. His brother Jason, who favoured the Seleucids, bribed Antiochus to make him High Priest instead. Antiochus was insensitive to the views of religious Jews and treated the High Priest as a political appointee and one from which money could be made.

    Menelaus (who was not even a member of the Levite priestly family), then bribed Antiochus and was appointed High Priest in place of Jason. Menelaus had Onias assassinated. His brother Lysimachus took holy vessels from the Temple, causing riots and the thief's death at the hands of the rioters. Menelaus was arrested and arraigned before Antiochus, but he bribed his way out of trouble. Jason subsequently drove out Menelaus and became High Priest again. Antiochus sacked the Temple and re-installed Menelaus.

    From this point onwards, Antiochus pursued a Hellenizing policy with zeal. This effectively meant banning traditional Jewish religious practice. In 167 BCE Jewish sacrifice was forbidden, sabbaths and feasts were banned and circumcision was outlawed. Altars to Greek gods were set up and animals prohibited to Jews were sacrificed on them. The Olympian Zeus was placed on the altar of the Temple. Possession of Jewish scriptures was made a capital offence. The king's motives are unclear. He may have been incensed at the overthrow of his appointee, Menelaus,[1] he may have been responding to a Jewish revolt that had drawn on the Temple and the Torah for its strength, or he may have been encouraged by a group of radical Hellenizers among the Jews.[2]
    So, we can start out their favor with seleucid low, and give them tendency to lean into Ptolemaic side... Or, we could simply use "Forbidden Warning" for Seleukid Players, that they shouldn't build ANY TEMPLE.. in the area near Hierosolyma (Jerusalem), Tsidon, and Gaza... or The Jews will rebel, and allied themself with Ptolemies...
    Ptolemies should got the same message too... they shouldn't build ANY TEMPLE in this 3 province, or the Jews will Rebel...

    The Revolt
    After Antiochus issued his decrees forbidding Jewish religious practice, a rural Jewish priest from Modiin, Mattathias the Hasmonean sparked the revolt against the Seleucid Empire by refusing to worship the Greek gods. Mattathias killed a Hellenistic Jew who stepped forward to offer a sacrifice to an idol in Mattathias' place. He and his five sons fled to the wilderness of Judea. After Mattathias' death about one year later in 166 BCE, his son Judah Maccabee led an army of Jewish dissidents to victory over the Seleucid dynasty in guerrilla warfare, which at first was directed against Jewish collaborators, of whom there were many. The Maccabees destroyed pagan altars in the villages, circumcised children and forced Jews into outlawry.[2] The term Maccabees as used to describe the Judean's army is taken from its actual use as Judah's surname.

    The revolt itself involved many individual battles, in which the Maccabean forces gained infamy among the Syrian army for their use of guerrilla tactics. After the victory, the Maccabees entered Jerusalem in triumph and ritually cleansed the Temple, reestablishing traditional Jewish worship there and installing Jonathan Maccabee as high priest. A large Syrian army was sent to quash the revolt, but returned to Syria on the death of Antiochus IV. Its commander Lysias, preoccupied with internal Syrian affairs, agreed to a political compromise that restored religious freedom.

    The Jewish festival of Hanukkah celebrates Judah Maccabee's victory over the Seleucids and associated events that Jews regard as miraculous.
    That Judean faction should have perhaps some units that resembling a crossbreed between ambushing tactics (like the Iberians), and perhaps some hellenistic phalanx for holding the line, but they shouldn't get any pezhetairoi and up... (Klerouchikoi Phalangitai and Pantodapoi is ok)

    Maccabean rule

    Following the re-dedication of the temple, the supporters of the Maccabees were divided over the question of whether to continue fighting or not. When the revolt began under the leadership of Mattathias, it was seen, in the view of the author of the First Book of Maccabees, as a war for religious freedom to end the oppression of the Seleucids. However, as the Maccabees realized how successful they had been, many wanted to continue the revolt and conquer other lands with Jewish populations or to convert their peoples. This policy exacerbated the divide between the Pharisees and Sadducees under later Hasmonean monarchs such as Alexander Jannaeus.[3] Those who sought the continuation of the war were led by Judah Maccabee.

    On his death in battle in 160 BCE, Judah was succeeded as army commander by his younger brother, Jonathan, who was already High Priest. Jonathan made treaties with various foreign states, causing further dissent between those who merely desired religious freedom and those who sought greater power.

    In 142 BCE Jonathan was assassinated by Diodotus Tryphon, a pretender to the Seleucid throne, and was succeeded by Simon Maccabee, the last remaining son of Mattathias. Simon gave support to Demetrius II Nicator, the Seleucid king, and in return Demetrius exempted the Judeans from tribute. Simon conquered the port of Joppa and the fortress of Gezer and expelled the garrison from the Acra in Jerusalem. In 140 BCE, he was recognised by an assembly of the priests, leaders and elders as high priest, military commander and ruler of Judea. Their decree became the basis of the Hasmonean kingdom. Shortly after, the Roman senate renewed its alliance with the Hasmonean kingdom and commanded its allies in the eastern Mediterranean to do so also. Although the Maccabees won autonomy, Judea remained a province of the Seleucid empire and Simon was required to provide troops to Antiochus VII Sidetes, the brother of Demetrius II. When Simon refused to give up the territory he had conquered, Antiochus took them by force.

    Simon was murdered in 134 BCE by his son-in-law Ptolemy, and succeeded as high priest and king by his son John Hyrcanus I. Antiochus conquered the entire district of Judea, but refrained from attacking the Temple or interfering with Jewish observances. Judea was freed from Seleucid rule on the death of Antiochus in 129 BCE.[2]

    Judean autonomy lasted until 63 BCE, when the Roman general Pompey captured Jerusalem and subjected Judea to Roman rule, while the Hasmonean dynasty itself ended in 37 BCE when the Idumean Herod the Great became king of Judea[1] and king of the Jews[4][2].

    The story of the Maccabees can be found in the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles in the deuterocanonical books of 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees. Books of 3 Maccabees and 4 Maccabees are not directly related to the Maccabees. The books are not part of the Hebrew Bible.
    That means that the Jewish FM's should have some "Disloyal effect" therefore forcing the player to grow a high authority Faction Leader...


    The Proposed Army
    Infantry:
    -> Iudaioi Taxeis : Their primary rank and file units, as well as their lowest unit in their native MIC, their recruitment could be more widespread (or even ties only to building), so they could support more army...
    -> Pantodapoi Phalangitai: They use this phalanx army for self defense against diadochian Phalanx army, for some of them must be observed diadochian drill...
    -> Klerouchikoi Phalangitai: Enrolled from the Hellenistic Jews as well, they provide better phalanx army for the Jews... (at least they didn't get slaughtered wholesale against argyraspides)
    -> Bnei Shevet Aravim: Well, the jews must allready used some tribal Arab levies as mercs, and javelinmen against phalanx force.
    -> Aithiophikoi Machairophoroi: this unit info directly implied that some ethiophian are Jews, Ethiophian swordsmen will give them a swordsmen unit
    -> Hanaatim Kushim: this was implied as Ethiophian spearmen, some are jews too..
    -> Aithiophikoi Toxotai: Ethiophian archers..... Jes got more AOR for Ethiophian troops
    -> Giusim Aravim Tsophonim: Arabian archer-spearmen are always handy
    -> Nizagan-i Eranshar: When the jews exiled in babylon, no doubt they will value this light troops that comprises bulk of the Persian army
    -> Kardaka Arthenshar: This was a good Persian troops... recruitable in eastern side of maps, when they conquer them...
    -> Shipri Tukul: Better version of the Persian influenced men... could be recruited in Hierosolyma because their description implies they fought in Persian influenced nature, not persian themself...
    -> Iudaioi Sphendonitai: Supperior version of slingers... In the Bible, the Jews has a really good sling troops, so perhaps they could be used..
    -> Iudaioi Zealots: A really tough melee infantry, only lightly armoured, and carry just swords... but they should have frightening abilities and 2 Hp like Gaesatae... Call them Gaesatae in proper clothing...
    -> Galatikoi Kluddolon: These Galatian troops are recruitable too...
    -> Qalaim Aravim: Inferior version of slingers, drawn from Arabs
    -> Gund-i Palta: Well, what about this troops?
    -> Misteret Ezrahim.... Maybe you'll ask, why I propose this Kart-Hadast militia? Maybe they should be renamed as "Semitic Militia Hoplites?"
    -> Toxotai Syriakoi: they are lived near them, why don't use them?
    -> Thureophoroi: Well, there was lot of Hellenic influence here
    -> Machimoi: Egyptians could easily join Jewish religion
    -> Machimoi Phalangitai: same reason
    -> Machimoi Pelekephoroi: Assault infantry made of Egyptians wielding axes (Viva mummy returns Vanilla axemen....)
    -> perhaps this was too much?

    Cavalry:
    -> Parasim Ezrahim Ponnim: Recruitable in Tsidon
    -> Aithiophikoi Hippeis: Ethiophian in cavalry version...
    -> Machimoi Hippeis: Egyptian in cavalry version...
    -> Asiatikoi Hippeis
    -> Asabaran-i Madean
    -> Maybe some sort of Chariot archers (name them Merkava): Chariots are often mentioned in the Bible
    -> no other minda bout cavalry...
    -> Pilei Yaar Libim: Well, they should got acess for this Elephant

    Bodyguards:
    -> Zealot Bodyguards: 40 men 2 Hp Freaks.... but if u mind their over strength
    -> Cavalry BG, perhaps Iudaioi Strategoi? (use Somatophylakes strategou model?), or Chariot BGs

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    They should start with 1 settlement, Jerusalem, and had a fairly small, but tough army of Zealots...

    Perhaps this may help... but I think about a better presentation could be made from real Jew...

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Given the history of the region and the gameplay justifications mentioned in the first post, I'm not sure Judea needs a faction slot. Wouldn't a strong revolt value be good enough to reflect the history? Given the Seleucids tendency to lose revolting provinces (like Galatia) in EB1, I would think that a strong enough revolt modifier in Judea would make the province difficult to hold on to.

  4. #4
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    No.

    Jewish faction:
    We know people love the Jews and would want a Maccabean faction. Here is the deal though. The Maccabeans revolted a century after the game start. They would be an emerging faction which is something EB has decided not to have. If we did, you could bet Yuezhi would be in. Another thing is that the Jews would only control Judea and the consensus from reading sources is that the Jews would most likely be happy just to have Judea and not try to subjugate other nations or peoples, at least not on the scale that is in Total War games. We might add some more unrest to Judea, although the Jews seemed to have lived well enough under the Seleukids (before Antiochos IV of course) & Ptolemies before, as they were granted royal charters recognizing their rights.
    Three excellent points which make the status of the inclusion of Ioudaia as a faction quite obvious.
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  5. #5
    Member Member anubis88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    I completly agree with Hax. It would be just hugely ahistorical to put factions in the TW series that were not conqueror-minded. Unfortunatly, this is practicaly forced, imagine the Maccabeans becaming strong, and start conquering the middle east... Very very ahistorical.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    Hmm... this was using 1 slot as waste... but this Judean faction will be better represented if we pick them at the start as Seleucid's Protectorate... (And then rebelled as Baktria)

    Perhaps Hooahguy can help us...

    According to Wikipedia:



    That means that we couldn't use Maccabeid family as the Starting FM's (But then, we could use script to spawn them, and use "Teutonic"ish republican system instead)



    So, we can start out their favor with seleucid low, and give them tendency to lean into Ptolemaic side... Or, we could simply use "Forbidden Warning" for Seleukid Players, that they shouldn't build ANY TEMPLE.. in the area near Hierosolyma (Jerusalem), Tsidon, and Gaza... or The Jews will rebel, and allied themself with Ptolemies...
    Ptolemies should got the same message too... they shouldn't build ANY TEMPLE in this 3 province, or the Jews will Rebel...



    That Judean faction should have perhaps some units that resembling a crossbreed between ambushing tactics (like the Iberians), and perhaps some hellenistic phalanx for holding the line, but they shouldn't get any pezhetairoi and up... (Klerouchikoi Phalangitai and Pantodapoi is ok)



    That means that the Jewish FM's should have some "Disloyal effect" therefore forcing the player to grow a high authority Faction Leader...


    The Proposed Army
    Infantry:
    -> Iudaioi Taxeis : Their primary rank and file units, as well as their lowest unit in their native MIC, their recruitment could be more widespread (or even ties only to building), so they could support more army...
    -> Pantodapoi Phalangitai: They use this phalanx army for self defense against diadochian Phalanx army, for some of them must be observed diadochian drill...
    -> Klerouchikoi Phalangitai: Enrolled from the Hellenistic Jews as well, they provide better phalanx army for the Jews... (at least they didn't get slaughtered wholesale against argyraspides)
    -> Bnei Shevet Aravim: Well, the jews must allready used some tribal Arab levies as mercs, and javelinmen against phalanx force.
    -> Aithiophikoi Machairophoroi: this unit info directly implied that some ethiophian are Jews, Ethiophian swordsmen will give them a swordsmen unit
    -> Hanaatim Kushim: this was implied as Ethiophian spearmen, some are jews too..
    -> Aithiophikoi Toxotai: Ethiophian archers..... Jes got more AOR for Ethiophian troops
    -> Giusim Aravim Tsophonim: Arabian archer-spearmen are always handy
    -> Nizagan-i Eranshar: When the jews exiled in babylon, no doubt they will value this light troops that comprises bulk of the Persian army
    -> Kardaka Arthenshar: This was a good Persian troops... recruitable in eastern side of maps, when they conquer them...
    -> Shipri Tukul: Better version of the Persian influenced men... could be recruited in Hierosolyma because their description implies they fought in Persian influenced nature, not persian themself...
    -> Iudaioi Sphendonitai: Supperior version of slingers... In the Bible, the Jews has a really good sling troops, so perhaps they could be used..
    -> Iudaioi Zealots: A really tough melee infantry, only lightly armoured, and carry just swords... but they should have frightening abilities and 2 Hp like Gaesatae... Call them Gaesatae in proper clothing...
    -> Galatikoi Kluddolon: These Galatian troops are recruitable too...
    -> Qalaim Aravim: Inferior version of slingers, drawn from Arabs
    -> Gund-i Palta: Well, what about this troops?
    -> Misteret Ezrahim.... Maybe you'll ask, why I propose this Kart-Hadast militia? Maybe they should be renamed as "Semitic Militia Hoplites?"
    -> Toxotai Syriakoi: they are lived near them, why don't use them?
    -> Thureophoroi: Well, there was lot of Hellenic influence here
    -> Machimoi: Egyptians could easily join Jewish religion
    -> Machimoi Phalangitai: same reason
    -> Machimoi Pelekephoroi: Assault infantry made of Egyptians wielding axes (Viva mummy returns Vanilla axemen....)
    -> perhaps this was too much?

    Cavalry:
    -> Parasim Ezrahim Ponnim: Recruitable in Tsidon
    -> Aithiophikoi Hippeis: Ethiophian in cavalry version...
    -> Machimoi Hippeis: Egyptian in cavalry version...
    -> Asiatikoi Hippeis
    -> Asabaran-i Madean
    -> Maybe some sort of Chariot archers (name them Merkava): Chariots are often mentioned in the Bible
    -> no other minda bout cavalry...
    -> Pilei Yaar Libim: Well, they should got acess for this Elephant

    Bodyguards:
    -> Zealot Bodyguards: 40 men 2 Hp Freaks.... but if u mind their over strength
    -> Cavalry BG, perhaps Iudaioi Strategoi? (use Somatophylakes strategou model?), or Chariot BGs

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    They should start with 1 settlement, Jerusalem, and had a fairly small, but tough army of Zealots...

    Perhaps this may help... but I think about a better presentation could be made from real Jew...
    I am without doubt impressed

    But if there will be no emerging factions then it is a pitty, although on this matter I am wondering just how Egypt will be prevented from conquerin the world?

    I had too much fun and spent way too much time on RTW (infact much more then I ever spent on MTW2, I am proud of not repeating the time mistakes ) which is what makes me concerned, because no matter how many campaign attempts, no matter which Roman faction I picked relatively quickly all there was would be Egypt, and sometimes a couple of overly agressive and stupidly proud Pontus provinces, and sometimes the Senate requested I take the only province the Selucids had left.

    So this idea wasn't just a bring up the obvious, just an idea, since inevitably the two I assume clashed over Judea, and if the two have a titanic clash there, and the Selucids lose with the Egyptians taking what I assumed where very heavy casualties, the Judeans suddenly emerging to challenge them would give everyone a fighting chance.

    I actually once playing as the Jullii refused all Senate Missions East, and ended up fighting Egypt only, with Egypt controlling all non Roman portions of the world.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Why dont you EB guys try to do what the DoTs team is gonna do with all those "alliances" like the kalmar union ...
    ?



    I think it sounds wonderfull !
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  8. #8
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    What exactly are they supposed to do after they rebel though? Sit around/civil war until someone desides to finally conquer them and then evict them for being annoying?
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  9. #9
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Let's wait EB 2 Relased, and making submod about Judea (By kicking an sightly unimportant faction.... (oops) such as ............ (fill with an EB 2 faction who'll act like Scotland in M2TW)

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Macabean faction would be an interesting idea. If it would make its way into EB II, I'd gladly try that campaign, but it would be nigh-impossible to succeed with that faction. Not only it is squeezed between 2 superpowers, it's also very near core recruitment centers of those superpowers. Not like Pahlava or Saka, who have to fight lots of Pantodatoi before better Sele troops reach them, Ioudoi (sp) would have to fight best Ptolie/AS troops from the start. Second thing is that Judea did not have any ambitions of expanding and conquest. The value of the faction that would just sit in one region, waiting to be conquered is not that great. But if EB is an alternative history, then - why not?
    Last edited by Marcus Ulpius; 05-22-2009 at 08:30.

  11. #11
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Quote Originally Posted by TancredTheNorman View Post
    But if there will be no emerging factions then it is a pitty, although on this matter I am wondering just how Egypt will be prevented from conquerin the world?
    Its all about balancing, the Ptolemaioi didn't always conquer everything, in older versions of EB it was the the Seleukids that usually ended up massive (they still do in a fair amount of my games). Also from what I've read the Sabeans are getting beefed up in EBII so they will probably be able to prevent the Ptolemaioi getting too strong.

    Also being on M2TW:K will help a lot, factions steamrolling the map is a lot less common in that game.

    The main reason emerging factions are not in is because you can't play them so it would be a lot of effort (and the EB team put in a LOT of effort) going into a faction that no one will be able to play.
    Last edited by bobbin; 05-22-2009 at 10:53.


  12. #12
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Hmmm.... I talk about makin an EB 2 Submod..... not influencing main EB 2 itself...... (And to made this faction playable, I think the best way is giving them Protectorate status with AS as their overlord....)

    The main EB 2 itself should be left unmolested.... maybe we can kick one of Pergamon, Syrakousai, or Kyrene in this submod

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    I thought Emerging factions were discarded....

    If Judea is to exist, then it would be like Kyrene, trapped between two powers..

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  14. #14
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    as i wrote Cute Wolf, theres another problem with a Judaea faction:
    there werent uniform units. there wasnt a standing army for them back then. the king called up all men of eligible age at time of war from the 12 tribes. it was basically a uniform rabble of men.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Such a faction, placed between two superpowers, would be like a Saba-Campaign. Only difference is: you'll have far less time to prepare for the inavoidable clash. Given the inherent weak economy of a one-province faction for the player, you'd be forced to go into the offensive from the start, which would make your campaign unrealistic.

    But feel free to work this idea out if you like to,

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    I really don't get why people want Judea included. Even if we add them as an ally of Seleucids or Ptolemies at the beginning, that makes No Sense to me. Then perhaps Persepolis and Sardis should also be allies of the Seleucids??? Judea wasn't an ally, it was a subjugated territory, just like any other province. Using the idea that "the province later revolted/tried to revolt", every province in the game except capitols should be independent factions just allied to the main faction (and that would be as useless as it would be impossible)

    Also, Judea is possibly the ONE PROVINCE in the entire game THAT IS BEST represented by the Eleutheroi: the jews PRECISELY DIDN'T attempt any conquest outside of their immediate territory after establishing their independence, making the Eleutheroi just perfect... I'd say more or less 75% of all other Eleutheroi provinces in EB is more deserving of being elevated to an actual faction - i.e. they were historically more expansionist than Judea. ;)
    Also, Eleutheroi can easily fulfill the historical events of the area: they were never a third player equal in power/ambition to the Seleucids or Ptolemies in their prime, and even when these 2 empires were weakened, the Jews merely survived because of this weakness in their neighbours, more than because of any massive strength themselves. So, sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I simply cannot understand this urge to include Judea.
    Moreover, I advise that Syracusans must be added to EB (insp. by Cato the Elder )

    Is looking forward to the 2090's, when EB 20.0 will be released - spanning the entire Eurasian continent and having no Eleutheroi - with a faction for every independent state instead. Look out for the Gedrosians, the Cretans and the kingdom of Kallatis!

  17. #17
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    No doubt. It would be far more important to put dozens of other emerging factions (If they would be in EB) before Judea would get its place. Persis/Persia would certainly be one of those. Etruria, "India", the Yuezhi, Sardinia, Massilia, Siracusa, Native Egypt, etc.
    Last edited by Jolt; 05-23-2009 at 23:50.
    BLARGH!

  18. #18
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Quote Originally Posted by artaxerxes View Post
    I really don't get why people want Judea included. Even if we add them as an ally of Seleucids or Ptolemies at the beginning, that makes No Sense to me. Then perhaps Persepolis and Sardis should also be allies of the Seleucids??? Judea wasn't an ally, it was a subjugated territory, just like any other province. Using the idea that "the province later revolted/tried to revolt", every province in the game except capitols should be independent factions just allied to the main faction (and that would be as useless as it would be impossible)

    Also, Judea is possibly the ONE PROVINCE in the entire game THAT IS BEST represented by the Eleutheroi: the jews PRECISELY DIDN'T attempt any conquest outside of their immediate territory after establishing their independence, making the Eleutheroi just perfect... I'd say more or less 75% of all other Eleutheroi provinces in EB is more deserving of being elevated to an actual faction - i.e. they were historically more expansionist than Judea. ;)
    Also, Eleutheroi can easily fulfill the historical events of the area: they were never a third player equal in power/ambition to the Seleucids or Ptolemies in their prime, and even when these 2 empires were weakened, the Jews merely survived because of this weakness in their neighbours, more than because of any massive strength themselves. So, sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I simply cannot understand this urge to include Judea.
    I would just give Judea:
    -Terrible public order as in red face with normal taxes.
    -The Second Temple has a tremendous public order bonus to counter the above somewhat.
    -If the Temple exists and other religious buildings are built, script decreases public order, and spawn rebel stacks in Judea each turn.
    -If Judea is rebel and the temple is still there, spawn rebel armies like EB1 does for certain areas.
    -If the Temple is destroyed, spawn many rebel armies once and after that nothing. This represents the Diaspora.

    Or something along those lines.
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  19. #19
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    @antisocialmunky..
    agreed... this was the best way in the main EB II campaign... just place 1 new unit (Gaesatae with proper clothes) to represent zealots too....

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  20. #20
    Vicious Celt Warlord Member Celtic_Punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    Let's wait EB 2 Relased, and making submod about Judea (By kicking an sightly unimportant faction.... (oops) such as ............ (fill with an EB 2 faction who'll act like Scotland in M2TW)
    scotland kicks ass.. my cousin plays M2TW and the campaigns i've seen scotland lasts either forever or does real damage on england. getting rid of scotland would be retarded.
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  21. #21
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    hey.. if that's the case of Britannia campaign, that's true when the scots start as second largest, and most advantageous position against england... but I talk about the M2TW Imperial campaign, and Scotland starts with just Edinburgh.... No.. I talk about When I play NOT as England (In case any human player play as England, Scots will be Blitzed without mercy...)...... The scots become the most "Retarded" faction... never expand much, and usually getting killed before 1150... Only in one occasion (when not play as Scots himself), the Scots kick england.... but it was only because french troops blitz england on his southern border....

    One-province faction should start with better miliraty terms, especially when the dumb AI use them, and they has a very - very bad neighbour (s)...... Pontos and Hai are in better position (EB), because AS troops was somewhat rare in asia minor, but England in M2TW... think again... that's why I use Scots as example...

    EDIT: except your cousins play england, roleplay to let Scots grow first, and decide to kick french ass first... Scots highland nobles kill like crazy against infantry.... and they have earlier pike troops to rid english cav... If they grows (or helped to grow), sure they will do real damage, or even wipe english out...
    Last edited by Cute Wolf; 05-26-2009 at 05:55.

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  22. #22

    Default Re: Emerging faction idea

    In my oppinion, the scottish are in a better position then your precious judea faction, at least the Scots are somewhat conqueror minded

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