Horde Alternative - never been posted before!!!

[angelofhullfire]

Everyone moans about the Ronon horde. Some people even justify using cheats just to say they can play on the expert level.

The horde was intended, since if a player has 1/2 to 2/3 of the map, then THEY HAVE WON!!!!!!

The only way around the horde is to have an AI that fight more intelligently. Unlikely, since you still win with 1/2 the map. Alernatively if the AI produces quality units the fights would be more challenging. This would would merely be a harder version of the current horde!

In short, i can't see how the AI can make the game a challenge after one clan has won 1/2 the map. While this topic has been done to death, I still feel that the community has moaned about it without objectively understanding the problem, or proposing a solution.

[solypsist]

yes, we're all aware of the reasons for there being a strong AI clan or "horde" What most of us don't like are the methods that result in this: the deficit-spending cheat, and such. If the AI actually improved it's own strategy and tactics (became a better player) rather than just big numbers of troops, then we'd all be much more appreciative of a game-balance to provide challenges being kept.

[angelofhullfire]

Yes, yes. I've read that before.


The point i'm made is there actually an alternative to having a horde?

Even if the computer WAS a better player, if you had over 1/2 the map and there was only 2 of you, the game is effectively OVER.


I'm sure the designers were well aware of all that problem. I can't think of a soluation to the end game, can you?

[solypsist]

Yes there actually is an alternative to the Horde-as-challenging-game. And that's having to face an AI that suddenly becomes better and "learns" common human-player tactics that result in more varied battles over the same terrain. Command & Conquer (what a lousy example) did a wonderful job of not falling for the same trick more than a few times, and if that game can do it, why cant STW?
Even the best human general is going to grow weary of blunting his mettel against overwhelming odds; huge numbers are more of a drugdery-chore than facing an opponent with upgraded forces (which is preferable to simply 10 banners of 16 units of ashigaru each).
Better intelligence is my preferred alternative to facing a dumb horde; you don't need huge numbers against you to keep a game challenging.


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 05-30-2001).]

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Once again, there will be the option to end the game if 2/3 of the provinces are in your possession in the Warlord Edition.

[RickooClan]

Since every AI clan have unlimited koku and can each become a horde, therefore as a player you could never play the game in a "slower" method. All you need to do is to rush the game to earn as much as province before horde is formed. Its completely crap in my point of view on a stratege game that i must rushing by AI cheat!! Economy is meaningless for the AI. [Mori=Hojo, both with unlimited koku] Other then this unlimited koku AI cheat the game is perfect i could say.

[A newbie's view on horde!]

[angelofhullfire]

I think that the "won after 2/3" inclusion seems to be the best solution.

[Forward Observer]

Rickooclan is right about speed play. I have played Shimazu at least 5 times, and Mori 3 or 4 on hard and there has been no horde. That is because I am at mid island within 10 game years using the tax "cheat", and 14 to 15 years if I don't . This does not give the horde time to form.

Most of my WW II combat flight sims have an option to play a short or long campaign. The shorter campaigns are structured like you entered the war in 1943 or 1944 and flew until the end. Ending STW when you have reached a 2/3 goal would be one way to shorten the game but it seems anticlmactic, and you could do that now by simply quiting at 2/3 and slapping youself on the back.

What I would rather see is this. When you pick a clan and choose to play a shortened campaign, 2 or 3 clans are randomly eliminated, as they would be 10 ro 15 years into the game, and all the provinces are re-distributed between your clan and the rest. You might have an extra troop producing fort or have the ability to produce-say-cavalry. Nothing too advanced. I would be as if your Daimyo is a clan heir, and rose to power in the year 1545 or whatever. Since the remaining 3 or 4 clans would be random, it would be different every time you played a particular clan. It would probably bring a lot of renewed interest back to campaign play, and preserve the fun small army battles for a bigger part of the total campaign.

I don't have a clue if this would be easy or hard be to implement, but think of the chance shifts of game balance. Hard clans might become easy or easy clans might become hard. It would add a whole new dimension to the existing game. Good idea or bad?


------------------
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.



[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 05-31-2001).]

[Puzz3D]

How about keeping the economic rules the same for the human and the ai, but increasing the hidden honor bonus of ai troops as the difficulty setting is increased? Don't have 4 difficulty settings. Have 10 or something like that. Or have separate difficulty settings for tactical and strategic parts of the game.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Karhu]

Excellent ideas. I particularly like FO's about starting the game half way through with a (semi-) random distribution of provinces. It would make for a different game each time you played, with lots of new strategic possibilities.

As things stand you pretty much know what you're going to get, and strategically it comes down to a mad rush to beat the horde to it. Building up slowly is not really a viable option, as you'll just get swamped in the end. I never get to see muskets, let alone geishas!

[Kraellin]

quantitative solutions are rarely as good as qualitative.

K.

[Vanya]

Quote ...I never get to see muskets, let alone geishas![/QUOTE]

Oh, lad! You have yet to experience life if you have not enjoyed the company of many a fine Japanese Geisha! I suggest you get moving on it quickly, before you meet your death on the field of battle one day...!

[angelofhullfire]

I wasn't expected the quality of some ideas that have been posted.

Having an option to be start a campaign "half-way-through" with only 3-4 clans left and random province and unit allocation would be a wonderful inclusion that might have earned an EA rep a hefty slap on the back (it this was a feasible conclusion).

I also think that hiding the opposing units honour would bring a new dimension of difficulty to MP (as they are seriously unlikely to produce the H9YA...).

Once again, good ideas people.

[evilc]

also, why not simply have a new clan 'emerge' from a group of ronin proviences, this would avert the horde problem as there would still be clans to fight against. of course, it would require quite a bit of work for the programmers...

[BanzaiZAP]

Ummm, guys? A lot of these suggestions seem to already be in the expansion pack. I think there IS going to be an option to start later in the development as well as ending early. Also the new Unifiers Campaigns should add more of the feeling that Forward Observer was talking about in the shorter WWII campaign. There was even a mention about the Ronin Clans reforming into a new clan! Soon.... the waiting will be over....
Mwahahahahahahaha!

-- B)