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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090521/...s_prayer_death
Comments on this article would be welcome. I'm biting my tongue.
Faith can hurt. Sometimes a little bit of healthy doubt is needed.
Comments on this article would be welcome. I'm biting my tongue.
Originally Posted by :
"I just felt that, you know, my faith was being tested. I never went through an experience like that before in my life and I just thought, man, this is the ultimate test," she said. "We just started praying and praying and praying over her."
The interview occurred several hours after Madeline died. Her mother told the detective she believed her daughter would come back to life.
"It may be crazy to you but that's why I'm not crying and wailing right now," Neumann said.
She also said her husband briefly considered getting their daughter to a doctor. "I said, `No, the Lord's going to heal her.' I believed that God was going to just restore our daughter," she said.
"I just felt that, you know, my faith was being tested. I never went through an experience like that before in my life and I just thought, man, this is the ultimate test," she said. "We just started praying and praying and praying over her."
The interview occurred several hours after Madeline died. Her mother told the detective she believed her daughter would come back to life.
"It may be crazy to you but that's why I'm not crying and wailing right now," Neumann said.
She also said her husband briefly considered getting their daughter to a doctor. "I said, `No, the Lord's going to heal her.' I believed that God was going to just restore our daughter," she said.
Faith can hurt. Sometimes a little bit of healthy doubt is needed.
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090521/...s_prayer_death
Comments on this article would be welcome. I'm biting my tongue.
Faith can hurt. Sometimes a little bit of healthy doubt is needed.
I wouldn't say that this is a fair reflection on faith so much as two people's stupidity. Tell me where in the Bible does Christianity endorse such stupidity? This ain't a matter of faith, but one of stupidity. How many people die in Africa each year because of stupid medicine rituals that they beleive in?http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090521/...s_prayer_death
Comments on this article would be welcome. I'm biting my tongue.
Faith can hurt. Sometimes a little bit of healthy doubt is needed.
An eye-opener for the Neumanns surely. I don't think many of the 35 000 denominations in the Christian faith do actually teach that you shouldn't involve medical doctors. There are probably a few, but the members should think again if or when stories like this happens. Any follow up story on this one?
Do the Neumanns now believe getting their daughter to a doctor was what they should have done?
Do the Neumanns now believe getting their daughter to a doctor was what they should have done?
Originally Posted by Sigurd:
An eye-opener for the Neumanns surely. I don't think many of the 35 000 denominations in the Christian faith do actually teach that you shouldn't involve medical doctors. There are probably a few, but the members should think again if or when stories like this happens. Any follow up story on this one?
Do the Neumanns now believe getting their daughter to a doctor was what they should have done?
I think that they should have paid a little attention to the part that says "God helps them who help themselves". Why on earth is God going to help you or your daughter when YOU do not even think your/your daughter's life is worth getting you or her to the hospital? If you do not make an effort to save your own/your daughter's life, why should God make an effort?An eye-opener for the Neumanns surely. I don't think many of the 35 000 denominations in the Christian faith do actually teach that you shouldn't involve medical doctors. There are probably a few, but the members should think again if or when stories like this happens. Any follow up story on this one?
Do the Neumanns now believe getting their daughter to a doctor was what they should have done?
Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again:
...If you do not make an effort to save your own/your daughter's life, why should God make an effort?
Because being saved by God is way cooler than being saved by a doctor....If you do not make an effort to save your own/your daughter's life, why should God make an effort?
God doesn't intervene in the world much nowadays because this is the time where everybody will mock Christians and the scripture and things are happening just like in Revelation.
There I said it.
There I said it.
This reminds me of that sect that believed that you could exist on fresh air alone. I forget their name now. Anyway, after a few weeks of only drinking water and getting nourishment from fresh air, they just about perfected it and then died.
As for this case. If you believe in an almighty and pray to him to intercede on your behalf, then it makes perfect sense. It also helps that it removes these looney tunes from the gene pool. Sad, but there we are.
As for this case. If you believe in an almighty and pray to him to intercede on your behalf, then it makes perfect sense. It also helps that it removes these looney tunes from the gene pool. Sad, but there we are.
It also helps that it removes these looney tunes from the gene pool.
Thats one good way to look at it, I haven't really got a problem with religious nuts removing theselves from the gene pool, its when they allow this to inflict on thier children i have a problem...
Maybe there should be some kind of questionaire for new parents to fill out, could make it multiple choice or something
Your child is in unrgent need of medical care, Do you
A) Take them to the doctor / phone an ambulance
B) same as above but pray to a higher power for his health
C) Do not seek medical attention as praying to a higher power will do the job...
A's and B's take the children home, C's children get put in the hands of someone responsible... like maybe an A or a B with a spare room
God doesn't intervene in the world much nowadays because this is the time where everybody will mock Christians and the scripture and things are happening just like in Revelation.
When did he stop intervening or lessen his interference... in recent times (with abortion and gays) back in the enlightenment... one of the world wars maybe ?
Out of interest (maybe we should open another topic for this) but apart from Israel being there (which i think the book made happen rather than predicted, its like predicting a child will be a failure so not bothering to teach him anything... then being proved right when hes a failure as an adult...) so what other signs are there pointing to it ?
Thats one good way to look at it, I haven't really got a problem with religious nuts removing theselves from the gene pool, its when they allow this to inflict on thier children i have a problem...
Maybe there should be some kind of questionaire for new parents to fill out, could make it multiple choice or something
Your child is in unrgent need of medical care, Do you
A) Take them to the doctor / phone an ambulance
B) same as above but pray to a higher power for his health
C) Do not seek medical attention as praying to a higher power will do the job...
A's and B's take the children home, C's children get put in the hands of someone responsible... like maybe an A or a B with a spare room
God doesn't intervene in the world much nowadays because this is the time where everybody will mock Christians and the scripture and things are happening just like in Revelation.
When did he stop intervening or lessen his interference... in recent times (with abortion and gays) back in the enlightenment... one of the world wars maybe ?
Out of interest (maybe we should open another topic for this) but apart from Israel being there (which i think the book made happen rather than predicted, its like predicting a child will be a failure so not bothering to teach him anything... then being proved right when hes a failure as an adult...) so what other signs are there pointing to it ?
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr:
God doesn't intervene in the world much nowadays because this is the time where everybody will mock Christians and the scripture and things are happening just like in Revelation.
There I said it.
Yes yes it all makes perfect sense now... God doesn't intervene in the world much nowadays because this is the time where everybody will mock Christians and the scripture and things are happening just like in Revelation.
There I said it.
Are you supposed to be agreeing with their choice then?Anyway, such behaviour like the one that family showed is indeed psychopathic but also indeed rare among Christians in our days. It should be noted though that radical and totally illogical religious dogmas have historically been very popular (see Wahabism today or what Christianity really was a few hundreds of years ago) and therefore we need to make sure that religion does not seep into political decision making...
Miracle cures are an intersting issue. Much of our knowledge about this comes fromMedieval Haigeography (Saint's lives etc.), generally such cures were only sought when all other avenues were exhausted. However, the Monks tended to think that you should go talk to a Saint first, surprisingly, perhaps, the Bishops and priests would rather you went to a doctor half the time.
In any case, I don't condone this sort of foolishness, especially when it leads to the death of children.
I also think, from a theological perspective, that if God wanted to challenge the parents he would mkae them ill, not their daughter. Alternatively, if they thought it was a spiritual attack they should have sent for an exorcist, who would hopefully have then sent the child to a hospital.
In any case, I don't condone this sort of foolishness, especially when it leads to the death of children.
I also think, from a theological perspective, that if God wanted to challenge the parents he would mkae them ill, not their daughter. Alternatively, if they thought it was a spiritual attack they should have sent for an exorcist, who would hopefully have then sent the child to a hospital.
Originally Posted by InsaneApache:
It also helps that it removes these looney tunes from the gene pool. Sad, but there we are.
I'M STILL STANDINGIt also helps that it removes these looney tunes from the gene pool. Sad, but there we are.
I'M STILL STANDING
Have you had a diesease/illness which rather than going to the doctor for god cured it through the miracle of prayer ?
Obviously im talking about something more serious than flu, something which those that don't believe in the miracle of prayer would say you needed medical attention to cure...
Otherwise the fact your still standing is fairly irrelevant to IA's point...
Either that or i fail badly at understanding your point...
Have you had a diesease/illness which rather than going to the doctor for god cured it through the miracle of prayer ?
Obviously im talking about something more serious than flu, something which those that don't believe in the miracle of prayer would say you needed medical attention to cure...
Otherwise the fact your still standing is fairly irrelevant to IA's point...
Either that or i fail badly at understanding your point...
Okay... if you're praying for god to cure you're diabetes, instead of taking your insulin, then god will kill you. For your stupidity.
Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again:
I wouldn't say that this is a fair reflection on faith so much as two people's stupidity. Tell me where in the Bible does Christianity endorse such stupidity? This ain't a matter of faith, but one of stupidity. How many people die in Africa each year because of stupid medicine rituals that they beleive in?
There is also many people dying of AIDS because catholic church is preaching them there that condoms are evil.I wouldn't say that this is a fair reflection on faith so much as two people's stupidity. Tell me where in the Bible does Christianity endorse such stupidity? This ain't a matter of faith, but one of stupidity. How many people die in Africa each year because of stupid medicine rituals that they beleive in?
Originally Posted by Wakizashi:
Okay... if you're praying for god to cure you're diabetes, instead of taking your insulin, then god will kill you. For your stupidity.
No, He has already 'saved you' by giving you what you need to survive. It is your choice whether to accept it or not. I wouldn't expect Him to come down and spit in your eye and say "You no longer have diabetes!". Okay... if you're praying for god to cure you're diabetes, instead of taking your insulin, then god will kill you. For your stupidity.
Originally Posted by Beskar:
There is also many people dying of AIDS because catholic church is preaching them there that condoms are evil.
The Roman Catholic Church is a human institution. Where in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt not use condoms"?There is also many people dying of AIDS because catholic church is preaching them there that condoms are evil.
I was just replying to IA's not very nice point that 'religious nuts' would be erased from the gene pool.
A contestant for this year's Darwin Award 
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
A contestant for this year's Darwin Award
Yeah but it appears they had more than one child. But of course we can hope the stupidity gene simply was a fluke.A contestant for this year's Darwin Award
CBR
This reminds me of a joke I heard before:
Originally Posted by :
There came a big flood, and the water around a man's house was rising steadily..
The man was standing on the porch, watching water rising all around him, when a man in a boat came along and called to the man, "Get in the boat and I'll get you out of here. The man replied, "No thanks, God will save me."
The man went into the house, and the water was starting to pour in. So, he went up to the second floor.
As he looked out, another man in a boat came along, and he called to the man, "Get in the boat and I'll get you out of here."
Again, the man replied, "No thanks. God will save me."
The water kept rising. So, the man got out onto the roof.
A helicopter flew over, and the pilot called down to the man, "I'll drop you a rope,grab onto it, and I'll get you out of here."
Again the man replied, "No thanks. God will save me."
The water rose and rose, and soon nearly covered the whole house. The man fell in, and drowned.
When he arrived in Heaven, he saw God, and asked Him, "Why didn't you save me from that terrible flood? Did I not show you my faith?"
With a loving but irritated tone God replied, "What more would you have me do? I sent people in two boats and a helicopter?"
What's the moral? When you pray for God's help, be prepared to accept it. If you sit around expecting the heavens to open up and everything to be fixed, you may be disappointed. There came a big flood, and the water around a man's house was rising steadily..
The man was standing on the porch, watching water rising all around him, when a man in a boat came along and called to the man, "Get in the boat and I'll get you out of here. The man replied, "No thanks, God will save me."
The man went into the house, and the water was starting to pour in. So, he went up to the second floor.
As he looked out, another man in a boat came along, and he called to the man, "Get in the boat and I'll get you out of here."
Again, the man replied, "No thanks. God will save me."
The water kept rising. So, the man got out onto the roof.
A helicopter flew over, and the pilot called down to the man, "I'll drop you a rope,grab onto it, and I'll get you out of here."
Again the man replied, "No thanks. God will save me."
The water rose and rose, and soon nearly covered the whole house. The man fell in, and drowned.
When he arrived in Heaven, he saw God, and asked Him, "Why didn't you save me from that terrible flood? Did I not show you my faith?"
With a loving but irritated tone God replied, "What more would you have me do? I sent people in two boats and a helicopter?"
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly:
It also helps that it removes these looney tunes from the gene pool.
Thats one good way to look at it, I haven't really got a problem with religious nuts removing theselves from the gene pool, its when they allow this to inflict on thier children i have a problem...
Are not their children their very contribution to this "gene pool", though? It also helps that it removes these looney tunes from the gene pool.
Thats one good way to look at it, I haven't really got a problem with religious nuts removing theselves from the gene pool, its when they allow this to inflict on thier children i have a problem...
Originally Posted by Xiahou:
This reminds me of a joke I heard before:What's the moral? When you pray for God's help, be prepared to accept it. If you sit around expecting the heavens to open up and everything to be fixed, you may be disappointed.
Heh my minister said that joke a couple of weeks ago.This reminds me of a joke I heard before:What's the moral? When you pray for God's help, be prepared to accept it. If you sit around expecting the heavens to open up and everything to be fixed, you may be disappointed.
Dang, I saw this thread title and thought I'd finally be able to get off this medication.
Here's hoping with all the free time they'll have to pray in jail that the next epiphany they experience is about the dangers of blind faith unfettered by reality. Let us pray it hits like a ton ofbricks bibles.
Here's hoping with all the free time they'll have to pray in jail that the next epiphany they experience is about the dangers of blind faith unfettered by reality. Let us pray it hits like a ton of
Originally Posted by Beskar:
There is also many people dying of AIDS because catholic church is preaching them there that condoms are evil.
There is also many people dying of AIDS because catholic church is preaching them there that condoms are evil.
Making that statement requires an incredible leap of logic, as demonstrated in the last thread on the matter.
Originally Posted by :
Faith can hurt. Sometimes a little bit of healthy doubt is needed.
Simply wrong for this event. They were going against the teachings of the Bible:Faith can hurt. Sometimes a little bit of healthy doubt is needed.
Originally Posted by :
"It is also written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test." Matthew 4:7
CR"It is also written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test." Matthew 4:7
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
Simply wrong for this event. They were going against the teachings of the Bible:
CR
It doesn't matter to me what the Bible says, it's not about religion, the question isn't about whether it's better to believe in something or not... religion or no religion should not, in either case, cause stupidity within people or irrationality in judgment. FAITH is the issue, not religion. The Bible could teach one plus one equals five and it still wouldn't cause people to basically kill their children because they believe that God will heal them, even though he clearly will not. That requires faith.Simply wrong for this event. They were going against the teachings of the Bible:
CR
The difference being, I can believe in God (or disbelieve in God), but if I have faith that he will do something (or that I can do something); some wacky idea that I came up with by myself, that is taking a leap of faith. Religion involves a set of beliefs, usually involving those not supported by evidence and also involving the supernatural (if there is such a thing), but that's not always the case. Faith is unwavering belief in spite of evidence, or with a lack of evidence, in something. Whatever that thing is; be it religious theory or scientific theory or political theory, or any other kind of theory; and the belief is unquestioning. Unquestioning belief, ("blind faith") is dangerous and this is why. Because if you never question your beliefs then you might as well disconnect your brain because you've rendered it useless.
Blind faith also appears to be redundant, because what is faith unless it is blind to facts and deaf to evidence? Faith requires no evidence and it also requires one to sometimes ignore evidence. Hence the entire Faith versus Reason debate I had earlier with Rhyfelwyr, where I exhaustively demonstrated using example and logic and by definition, how dangerous faith is and how different it is from belief and from religion. Faith does not need to be religious, and it doesn't just mean belief. It means unwavering belief, stubborn belief, irrational belief, extreme belief. That's why we have to define certain things as faith, because we ALL have opinions and beliefs of some kind, and what differentiates rational opinions which can be altered or reasoned with and stubborn opinions which can never be altered, is faith, which opposes reason.
Acting on faith is almost by definition acting without reason or against reason. And what happens is people get hurt or they die when they ignore their own common sense. Acting on faith is dangerous. That's even intuitively obvious, because what is faith without risking being wrong? If we risk nothing by taking a leap of faith, then why is it so courageous (or stupid)?
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
It doesn't matter to me what the Bible says, it's not about religion, the question isn't about whether it's better to believe in something or not... religion or no religion should not, in either case, cause stupidity within people or irrationality in judgment. FAITH is the issue, not religion. The Bible could teach one plus one equals five and it still wouldn't cause people to basically kill their children because they believe that God will heal them, even though he clearly will not. That requires faith.
The difference being, I can believe in God (or disbelieve in God), but if I have faith that he will do something (or that I can do something); some wacky idea that I came up with by myself, that is taking a leap of faith. Religion involves a set of beliefs, usually involving those not supported by evidence and also involving the supernatural (if there is such a thing), but that's not always the case. Faith is unwavering belief in spite of evidence, or with a lack of evidence, in something. Whatever that thing is; be it religious theory or scientific theory or political theory, or any other kind of theory; and the belief is unquestioning. Unquestioning belief, ("blind faith") is dangerous and this is why. Because if you never question your beliefs then you might as well disconnect your brain because you've rendered it useless.
Blind faith also appears to be redundant, because what is faith unless it is blind to facts and deaf to evidence? Faith requires no evidence and it also requires one to sometimes ignore evidence. Hence the entire Faith versus Reason debate I had earlier with Rhyfelwyr, where I exhaustively demonstrated using example and logic and by definition, how dangerous faith is and how different it is from belief and from religion. Faith does not need to be religious, and it doesn't just mean belief. It means unwavering belief, stubborn belief, irrational belief, extreme belief. That's why we have to define certain things as faith, because we ALL have opinions and beliefs of some kind, and what differentiates rational opinions which can be altered or reasoned with and stubborn opinions which can never be altered, is faith, which opposes reason.
Acting on faith is almost by definition acting without reason or against reason. And what happens is people get hurt or they die when they ignore their own common sense. Acting on faith is dangerous. That's even intuitively obvious, because what is faith without risking being wrong? If we risk nothing by taking a leap of faith, then why is it so courageous (or stupid)?
Everytime I want to debate you, you make these posts and I get lazy.It doesn't matter to me what the Bible says, it's not about religion, the question isn't about whether it's better to believe in something or not... religion or no religion should not, in either case, cause stupidity within people or irrationality in judgment. FAITH is the issue, not religion. The Bible could teach one plus one equals five and it still wouldn't cause people to basically kill their children because they believe that God will heal them, even though he clearly will not. That requires faith.
The difference being, I can believe in God (or disbelieve in God), but if I have faith that he will do something (or that I can do something); some wacky idea that I came up with by myself, that is taking a leap of faith. Religion involves a set of beliefs, usually involving those not supported by evidence and also involving the supernatural (if there is such a thing), but that's not always the case. Faith is unwavering belief in spite of evidence, or with a lack of evidence, in something. Whatever that thing is; be it religious theory or scientific theory or political theory, or any other kind of theory; and the belief is unquestioning. Unquestioning belief, ("blind faith") is dangerous and this is why. Because if you never question your beliefs then you might as well disconnect your brain because you've rendered it useless.
Blind faith also appears to be redundant, because what is faith unless it is blind to facts and deaf to evidence? Faith requires no evidence and it also requires one to sometimes ignore evidence. Hence the entire Faith versus Reason debate I had earlier with Rhyfelwyr, where I exhaustively demonstrated using example and logic and by definition, how dangerous faith is and how different it is from belief and from religion. Faith does not need to be religious, and it doesn't just mean belief. It means unwavering belief, stubborn belief, irrational belief, extreme belief. That's why we have to define certain things as faith, because we ALL have opinions and beliefs of some kind, and what differentiates rational opinions which can be altered or reasoned with and stubborn opinions which can never be altered, is faith, which opposes reason.
Acting on faith is almost by definition acting without reason or against reason. And what happens is people get hurt or they die when they ignore their own common sense. Acting on faith is dangerous. That's even intuitively obvious, because what is faith without risking being wrong? If we risk nothing by taking a leap of faith, then why is it so courageous (or stupid)?
...GO JESUS!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Yawn. So you spent 500 words or so saying blind faith is stupid, using extreme definitions of faith.
And what the Bible says doesn't matter? Please - you started this as another one of your petulant attacks on Christianity. If these people had faith in the Bible, and believed in the Bible and Christianity, they would have known not to put the Lord to the test.
In short, you're using idiots to argue against having faith.
CR
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
Yawn. So you spent 500 words or so saying blind faith is stupid, using extreme definitions of faith.
And you don't dispute that, so why are we arguing?Yawn. So you spent 500 words or so saying blind faith is stupid, using extreme definitions of faith.
Originally Posted by :
And what the Bible says doesn't matter? Please - you started this as another one of your petulant attacks on Christianity.
I did no such thing. I defended religion as having NOTHING to do with what idiots believe God will miraculously do for them if they ignore good common sense.And what the Bible says doesn't matter? Please - you started this as another one of your petulant attacks on Christianity.
CR, I have no issue with you, but you're a fantastically poor debater.
Originally Posted by :
If these people had faith in the Bible, and believed in the Bible and Christianity, they would have known not to put the Lord to the test.
Agreed! I didn't say otherwise.If these people had faith in the Bible, and believed in the Bible and Christianity, they would have known not to put the Lord to the test.
Originally Posted by :
In short, you're using idiots to argue against having faith.
Anyone who acts out of blind faith to endanger themselves is foolish, I admit. I won't call them idiots, I leave that to the merciful and non-judgmental.In short, you're using idiots to argue against having faith.
If you won't really read my arguments or treat them seriously, and then get upset at things I didn't say or mean, then I'd ask you kindly not to respond to me, since you're not really responding to me.
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
CR, I have no issue with you, but you're a fantastically poor debater.
What are you on about? This isn't true at all.CR, I have no issue with you, but you're a fantastically poor debater.
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
What are you on about? This isn't true at all.
Did you read our exchange? I'm assuming you did.What are you on about? This isn't true at all.
I said the issue was blind faith, not religion. One can have religion and not act on it blindly, or ignore good common sense and evidence, while also still believing in something.
Blind faith (to me, that's redundant) leads to ignoring common sense. That's what I was "on about". CR completely ignored what I said and said this was another "petulant" attack on Christianity, which it... was... not.
That's poor debating, in my opinion.
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