Europa barbarorum Online Tournament!

[JinandJuice]

nobody lives in america :((

[antisocialmunky]

I'm just going to throw this out there. We could just the phalanx exploit be used only against a phalangite box after that player has no other forces left. The 'surround' rule was never really all that usable in the last tournement.

[Maion Maroneios]

*Sigh*

You guys never learn, don't you. The exploit is not going to be implemented. Get over it, it's not going to happen.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

*Sigh*

Read more carefully.

Like I said, I was just throwing it out there. I'm not advocating it since no one needs this to beat the phalanx this time around. It was just a thought since Phalanx doesn't have any phalangite box rules.

ASM

[Maion Maroneios]

*Sigh*

I read very carefully and I know were you're aiming at, don't worry.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

*Sigh*

Then don't act so defensive. Good luck on those tests BTW.

[Duguntz]

nobody lives in america :((

Quebec. North America

[Duguntz]

Guys, I'm sorry, I've been flying to England and do not have an easy access to internet. If someone could just keep in touch with me about the tournament and how's goin and the changes in rules, it's be great! thanks mates! Just PM me!

Cheers to all!

Sweboz will soon be back to kick some Romans arses!

[darius_d]

I wanted to give some input in attempt to establish final and clear rules of the tournament, addressing most problems discussed so that all is clear, simple, and working as much as possible. But without rewriting everything.

As for elite units: it is proved in previous posts that elite unit shouldn't be identified by name or description of features. This is often relative because it depend on culture so effectively it is not universally comparable.

The best universal criterion IMHO is the cost of recruitment.

Why? Because it represents quite precisely average potential combat value of a unit in battle. By cost of recruitment we can generally quite reliably compare all units with each other.
After setting up a level of mnai for being elite there is no more discussion if a unit is elite or not. It is very simple and clear to apply for all units of all factions, both native and foreign.

So this is what I propose about elite units and balance of armies:

--------------------------------------
(Applies for all cultures except steppe)

Total elite units in the army:
All factions except barbarians - max 6 elites (no change)
Barbarians - max 8 elites

Foreign units: max 5 units - unit is foreign if is not included on the list of natives on europabarbarorum.com - (no change)

CAVALRY:
max 6 units, max 2 elites; level for elite: > 3000 mnai
exceptions - these are also elites:
- all bodyguards cav.

MISSILES (archers and slingers, no skirmishers):
max 4 units, max 2 elites, level for elite: > 1100 mnai

INFANTRY and others:
level for elite: > 2078 mnai
exceptions - these are also elite units:
- Romani Legionary First Cohort marian/imperial 1914 mnai,

Additonal rules for Pike Phalanx:
max 8 units,
max 6 units > 2002 mnai
- no movement of units throu phalanx
- phalanx formation once disabled cannot be enabled again until end of battle.


TOTAL BUDGET: 40 000 mnai.
Chevrons - no limitations.
---------------------------------------

Why like that?

Barbarians are given more access to elite troops because this is designed to help them spend all available money without any problems, so that their army is equal to others.
It is according to the rule that two armies are potentially equal if they spend equal budget.
This way the budget of 40 K mnai could be maintained.

That arrangment for barbarians should be considered as substitute of their historical numerical superiority on battlefield. EB settings reversed this by giving to hellenic phalanxes both quality and tactical superiority (which is ok) and numerical advantage (this is not ok).
But still, the budget is equal for all.


Cavalry -
with level above 3000 mnai we can find only strong cavalry units in all rosters, even if they are called sometimes "medium". But there is much difference between medium cav costing 2300 mnai and 3100 mnai.
Otherwise, if we increase the level to let's say 3200 mnai, we'll see again just very heavy cavalry, and barely one or none of lighter units. The level of 3000 mnai restricts all factions, including barbarians, and helps to save more money for infantry.

Missiles-
The indicator for 1100 mnai level is a unit of Balearic Slingers 1118 mnai.
Optionally this could be lowered to include Rhodian Slingers 988 mnai, but then IMHO too many units would be counted as elite missiles.
So it is also clear that powerful syrian archers are elite much like Kretikoi Toxotai, which is absolutely fair.
Limit for elite missile units is to keep historical and to avoid heavy overuse like it is now, especially by Hellens as they do not need to sacrifice limit of elite units to build a phalanx.
Barbarians don't have anything of elite missiles anyway, so they can only counter that by making more elite infantry units.

Infantry-
The level of 2078 mnai is set between Hellenic Medium Phalanx - which remains below category of elites, and Cohors Evocata - which is considered elite. First Cohorts remain elite as it is now.
It means that except barbarians (who have more access to elites) for all others there is no major change in battle formation compared to what is now.
If phalanx are to consist of 7 or 8 units, then those additional units need to be cheaper levies like Klerouchoi or hellenic natives. This is to avoid overpowered phalanxes and keep more historical.

Chevrons - no limitations because their influence is actually of minor importance.
---------------------------------------

I hope this proposal solves more problems than creates . I appreciate all comments.

[Maion Maroneios]

Good luck on those tests BTW.

Cheers

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

I really do like the increased barbarian elite limit. They definitely need that.

For the most part, I like this. But believe me, you do not want 6 cav allowed for civilized factions if you are a barbarian, that is a bad day. You want less than 5, probably 4 but 5 is good. 2 Heavies and 3 Medium-Lights. I think the cav rules definitely need to be revised since certain elite cavalry is under 3K. For example, Campanian Cav are like 2600 and are an cost effective counter agaisnt 4K Companions. I would spam these if I had the chance at 40K.

Cavalry should still be segregated with heavy/medium-light since the extremely powerful shock effects of heavy cav is the main issue. High end HA can't do that and neither can high end overhand spear cav.

Max 4 missiles is okay with the unrestricted skirm/light infantry that I've described earlier but you probably want a skirm limit somewhere since my Baktrian Light Infantry + Archer army can't be effectively countered by the barbarians except in trees.

The phalanx rules you have would be okay in theory but it makes phalangites too easy to counter by just running around and forcing the enemy to phalanx ball. An army couldn't just run past an enemy army to hit it from behind since it needed to guard its camp as well forcing a set piece battle. So I think the correct balance would be to make it so that phalangites can't be put back in phalanx once they are taken out of it in combat. I don't really have a problem with them being used for flanking running around since it strings them out and makes it easier to hit them from behind.

Steppe wise, I would say, max 10 missiles, max 14 cavalry, max 4 heavy cavalry. 6 Elites total. I usually use a 10 cav steppe army with a mass of cheap infantry. Steppe rules will be hard to make.

Also, Roman units with the discount don't really fit your infantry limit. You would probably categorize Triarii as elite despite the fact that they are really mediocre unless you want it that way.

[_Agrippa_]

hi, I would want to participate in the tournament of europa barbarorum using the Roman faction, my nick it is Agrippa,excuse me if I am wrong I don't speak English, I am Italian

[JinandJuice]

I must disagree with your 6 cav 2 elite limit. Like what antisocialmunky said, 6 cavalry is too much, but 2 elites counting bodyguard cav is too few. Assuming you would position 1 heavy cav on each flank plus a bodyguard cav, I suggest the original 3 elite.

I also do not agree with 2 elite missile units. If this rule were implimented, we'd see few variances, as most would have 2 kretan archers and 2 eastern slingers and have them duke it out with each other and hope for the best. If you put the elite limit to 3, players would have to contemplate whether they should have more cheap slingers to counter the more elite units or have more elite units to weaken the infantry during skirmishes. Basically what I'm saying is, the more the variety, the smaller luck is as a variable.

I strongly disagree with your phalanx rules. If the phalanxes could not separate, it would be incredibly easy for the line to be flanked, and incredibly hard to flank with your phalanx line. You would have to rely on the weak spearmen to hold the flanks and flank. If your rule were to be implemented, players would most likely use 4 or less phalanx units to hold a center and use hoplites to substitute for infantry. This would completely give up the purpose of being a phalanx nation. I think the 8 max limit is also arguable. Barbarians and Romans stack themselves with their specialized infantry, so why can't hellenic nations stack themselves with theirs? Even if a player does use 15 phalanxes, that would make them very easy to flank, especially with archers. Players would also just put them off phalanx mode for more mobility. A good general would not rely on pure phalanx units. A good opposing general would also know how to exploit the enemy's use of mass infantry.

[mountaingoat]

not bad change on the rules , an additional 2 elites for bars seems fine , mnai still should be lowered to 30k ... the whole point is that there is not enough light infantry on the field .. maybe we should make a rule that there should be at least 5x light inf units including light skirmishers

and i think the 1 cheveron rule should still apply if mnai is left over.

[antisocialmunky]

Missile unit wise, I'd say 4 archers 6 skirms or something like that. 30K favors Rome and the Barbarians a little too much. My testing with 35K has shown that it's pretty good for balancing. However, since the barbarians get more elites which are 3K +, then you're shooting yourself in the foot with the lower mnai since the Hellenic factions and outnumber you with phalangites or shoot your lines to ribbons since basic and mid-range barbs have poop armor while the high end guys have decent armor.

Really the only european barbs that have a chance are Lusto.


BTW- Since Phalanx isn't responding, I'm thinking about taking over. Also, since you're not doing much right now Maion, do you want to help with the planning? If anyone else wants to help with the planning and rules testing, talk to me on Hamachi, PM, or this thread.

[mountaingoat]

Hellenic factions and outnumber you with phalangites or shoot your lines to ribbons since basic and mid-range barbs have poop armor while the high end guys have decent armor.

Really the only european barbs that have a chance are Lusto.

no way , i eat them all up .. plus the heavy dacian spear has decent armor .

if there is going to be more elites then maybe more mnai could be put into the game .. the only thing i would say is that there should be a light inf or levy rule ... x5 levy units maybe in every game? with 40k that would at least mean we could pick the elites we wanted and make it worth while .

[Duguntz]

Hmmm, with any regard for civilised or barbarian faction, levy rule seems really interesting. Bu let me remember you that that gives 4 pikes more to every hellenic... but I'm confident ll will be sorted out... and for horses...
NO WAY. 6 is waaaay too much. 4 is well enough and if too many horse lovers cries, keep limit at 5 ( although its still too muh...) apart of corse for nomads...

cheers all

[mountaingoat]

Hmmm, with any regard for civilised or barbarian faction, levy rule seems really interesting. Bu let me remember you that that gives 4 pikes more to every hellenic.

not really if there is rule for max number of pikes

[antisocialmunky]

More reasonable people do 6 pikes, 6 line infantry.

Anyways, vartan and I are testing Leaf since Tunngle was so immature. I think this has a shot this time.

http://www.leafnetworks.net/

[antisocialmunky]

You know, I've been testing new rules this morning and I don't really see how we can make the barbs competative. I think the best way of making them better is to give them unlimitted weapons upgrades. But still. I'm not really sure what would be good for them since I don't usually paly them.

You can't beat Hellens well since you have crap cav. You can't attack anyone with good line infantry since they'll jsut stick them in guard mode and your men will tire themselves to death. You can't beat steppe... obviously...

So besides hanging around in trees, what can they actually do?

[darius_d]

@ASMunky - we can still decrease budget to 35 K.
And I've got an idea for revision of cavalry

OK guys, thanks for your great feedback. I must agree that cavalry needed better arrangement.
I came to conclusion that cavalry should be separated in two categories - normal cavalry and light steppe cavalry.
In the first category there is everything which is not light steppe cav :)

So what is this light steppe cav? These are steppe, eastern or dacian light cavalry units costing below 2000 mnai.
It is very easy to find which units match this category. They are light, unarmored, fast moving units armed often in bows, but also javelin or lance. So it is this type of cavalry which is specific for many eastern and steppe factions.

For me this distinction is quite necessary to respect the fact that for many steppe and greco-eastern factions horse units were basic part of the army. However, it was army of many light horse, not just medium and heavy horse.
Then, these factions shouldn't be punished to limit of just 4 cav units. So the idea is to give them indeed more cavalry but not to overpower them either.

Revised Cavalry Rules:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
All factions except steppe/ eastern:

CAVALRY (all cav except Light Steppe Cav)
max 4 unit, max 2 elites (> 3000 mnai)

LIGHT STEPPE CAVALRY (steppe, eastern and dacian light cavalry < 2000 mnai)
max 2 units,
(available for Pontos, Baktria, Arche Seleukeia and Getai).

----------------------------------------
Steppe and Eastern factions:
(Saka Rauka, Sauromate, Hayasdan, Pahlava).

Total army rules:
Max 10 archer/slinger units.
Max 6 elite units.

CAVALRY (all cav except Light Steppe Cav)
max. 4 elites (> 3000 mnai)

LIGHT STEPPE CAVALRY (steppe, eastern and dacian light cavalry < 2000 mnai)
min 50% of total cavalry units - (i.e. for 9 cav total, min. 5 units must be light steppe cav).

----------------------------------------
Rules for foot missiles, infantry and pike phalanx are the same as for all factions.

----------------------------------------
Other Modifications: (following the feedback)

Infantry:
exceptions - they are also elites:
- Romani Triarii camillan 1623 mnai / polybian 1524 mnai - (added)

Pike phalanx:
- [phalanx formation once disabled cannot be enabled again until end of battle] - cancelled
---------------------------------------------------------------------

It means that:
- even for 20 units of cavalry, minimum 10 units will be this cheap light steppe cavalry. Plus max 10 missile units in all army and max 4 elite cavalry - it should be more or less balanced.
Then I think that limit of max 14 cavalry units is no more necessary following introduction of this light steppe cav. category., and anybody playing as Steppe or Eastern should be allowed to field up to 20 cav units.

- Greco-Eastern factions, AS and Getai may have up to 6 cav units, but then 2 units will be always those cheap steppe cav. For them it is fair, and that way it should be acceptable.

- Hayasdan and Pahlava should be allowed to field unlimited number of cavalry, like steppe factions, and emulations of battle of Carrhae should be possible. Thats why I listed them together with steppe factions.

I really believe with this changes were are nearly at home :)

For other things:

- foot missiles and skirmishers
@ASmunky
I don't know if I understood you correctly. I grouped in Foot Missiles only archers and slingers because javelin skirmishers should be compared more to standard infantry who also throw their javelins or pila. In this sense they cannot be called elite because they usually get beaten.
Foot Missiles including just archers and slingers makes them remaining exclusive foot unit category shooting on long range, and their comparison in more justified. This way things are more clear, I believe.
As for Barbarians - now they have more elites, and more flexibility on budget, so beware. Also beware that Indian Longbowmen fall into elite now :)
I can help you about the tournament, if needed.

- phalanx formation
I canceled my proposal, I understand the issue, though I believe hellenic generals should know how to move phalanx in cohesion and where :)

- elite cav number
@JinandJuice - many people, not just me see that even 3 elite heavy cav (unless you are Steppe or Eastern) is simply spoiler of balance, thats why limit of max 2 was introduced. Believe me, this is still devastating.
@Duguntz - I hope you are more happy after the revision of cavalry rules above.

- budget: 30K, 40K or 35?
@ mountaingoat - 30 K seems too radical - too many people would be stack with drastically limited options for units to pick because many units just do not match their stats. People prefer maximum choice of units, thats why 40K seems most popular.
35 K budget is very reasonable for me. Though I know some hellen fans were strongly opposing it. I can accept both 40K and 35K.

Also idea for minimum units of light infantry is very good, for ex minimum 4 such units. So skirmishers for me could be part of this category. Let's see what others say.
BTW - what do you propose as cost barrier for light infantry?
Chevrons - unlimited, you are free about that.


So, guys!
if there are not big disagreements for the above, perhaps we can try some tests with new rules?

Hamachi network EBOT02, pass EB will be available for these rules if someone wish to try.

[antisocialmunky]

Just a friendly reminder directed especially at our Italian friends. THERE ARE NO UPGRADES ALLOWED. NO SWORD UPGRADES, NO ARMOR UPGRADES, ONLY 1 CHEVRON MAX. If you suspect your opponent of cheating, load up their unit roster(you ahve to be their faction) using the load preset army button at the bottom right of the army selection screen.

Seriously. The upgrades unbalance the game. I had 10 Indian archers shooting at 4 Imperial Roman Archers. I killed around 200(large size) but lost just that many. Except he still had ammo. That was 1 attack and 1 defense. Same thing happened with 3 Cretans vs 4 celtric slingers...

[Phalanx300]

I'm sorry that I have'n't been here alot but I got this whole week with tests coming up, and had to make dozens of presentations and essays so don't had and got the time right now for a tourney.

Someone else is free to take it over, Anti you already applied for that so go ahead .

[Apázlinemjó]

You know, I've been testing new rules this morning and I don't really see how we can make the barbs competative. I think the best way of making them better is to give them unlimitted weapons upgrades. But still. I'm not really sure what would be good for them since I don't usually paly them.

You can't beat Hellens well since you have crap cav. You can't attack anyone with good line infantry since they'll jsut stick them in guard mode and your men will tire themselves to death. You can't beat steppe... obviously...

So besides hanging around in trees, what can they actually do?

AP units can do wonders, even if the enemy is in guard mode.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, I think we should give Celts, Casse, Sweboz, and Getai the ability to do +2 attack with weapon upgrades. +3 is a little too overpowering when comboed with chevron for +4. Also, this would only be for infantry not cav, don't put this on archers/slingers/horses and only a +1 for javelin armed units.

So anyways, hopefully we can start this in two weeks before absolutely everyone loses interest. If you're still in the tournement, you should report in this thread by posting that you're still in it. Thanks.

[JinandJuice]

Yeah I'm still in it as Arche Seleukeia, and although I'm been on Hamachi frequently I still am not acknowledged on the first page.

[tsidneku]

I have been following the debate about rules. I am posting to confirm that I am still looking to participate in this tournament as Pontos.

Thanks.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, I'm still interested as Makedonia as well. But note I am very sceptical about these rules. First lowering the mnai cap, then allowing 1 chevron for each if a player has enough mnai left, then allowing weapon upgrades as well? I tell you, we're going to get bad beatings.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

1 Chevron was allowed for RvG and the Hellens came out pretty well. This is still i ntesting phase. It would be great if you could help. We are sticking at 40K right now but 35K is definitely a possibility.