Europa barbarorum Online Tournament!

[IrishHitman]

If we're going to lower the limit on the basis of historical accuracy, then we might as well just have set armies.

[Maion Maroneios]

Irish. I've debated about the negative effects that a lower mnai limit will bring forth, though people seem to believe otherwise. Especially those that comfortably choose factions with cheaper armies, or generally those that tend to get beaten by our armies. OK I'm being too general about this, but many still neglect some facts that a lower mnai limit will cause for Hellenistic factions.

Anyway, let them see that this won't work. The only way of persuading them is going to be if they see this for themselves. Though we should put up a good show for them.

Maion

[IrishHitman]

Irish. I've debated about the negative effects that a lower mnai limit will bring forth, though people seem to believe otherwise. Especially those that comfortably choose factions with cheaper armies, or generally those that tend to get beaten by our armies. OK I'm being too general about this, but many still neglect some facts that a lower mnai limit will cause for Hellenistic factions.

Anyway, let them see that this won't work. The only way of persuading them is going to be if they see this for themselves. Though we should put up a good show for them.

Maion

If they don't see a catastrophic drop in victories for whatever reason, they'll impose their limit on us.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yes, but that doesn't mean we are going to perform horrible just to prove to the rest this rule should not be implemented.

I say we do what we can, and if we see great (or at least considerable) differences with the battles fought with the 40,000 mnai limit, we can re-discuss the rules with some clear evidence. Maybe then a voting procejure will be due, and when some other minor issues are sorted out we can finally begin with the Tournament itself.

Maion

[HunGeneral]

I would not suggest lowering the Money limit either. Exactly because Hellenic Factions simply have more expensive troops. Sure there troops are often better then others, but still the other faction could use the extra money to more of there better units.

EDIT: By the way how are we going to play out battles between teams with a different number of Players? (like say if Romani had 5 and Ptolieds had 2 how would that be handled?)

We should not overhurry this, the better we make out the rules the better it will get. (pluss we could use some more players...)

[mountaingoat]

Because they use missle weapons as a main weapon?

oh hardly , they do a ok with a few spear throws , then they engage in melee and as mentioned are good to attack light and medium troops

[antisocialmunky]

@Irish - The 4 cav limit was part of RvG and worked well. You don't even use 4 cav, just 3 Companions in most games anyways against those hairy undermensch.

@Goat - We've always classified 'missile' units as units with the skirmish ability(So Romans aren't missile). I think that light infantry should not be considered missile units though hence the proposal.

@Hun - The problem is that as long as the Hellenic factions can fill out their 20 sized armies, they will probably outnumber their opponents since the average hellenic army size is bigger due to 240 size phalangites. The largest non-phalangite groups are 200 and often those are mostly levy types. I had toyed with the idea of limitting hellenic factions to 18 units rather than 20. That would make a big difference since you couldn't prevent a few units form getting round those flanks.

Afterall units sizes go:

Any Phalangite > Levy > Standard > Elites

If the barbarians had their unit increased by 1 level(200->240) but kept at the same price point, then it would a little more balanced

[IrishHitman]

@Irish - The 4 cav limit was part of RvG and worked well. You don't even use 4 cav, just 3 Companions in most games anyways against those hairy undermensch.

I'm referring to mnai, not cav limits.

[vartan]

If the barbarians had their unit increased by 1 level(200->240) but kept at the same price point, then it would a little more balanced

In any case, something needs to be done to balance the unbalanced...

[Mithick666]

This was a Epic Battle Romany(spiritusdilutus and Mithck) vs Sweboz(Phalanx300 and Apaliznemjo)

the replay http://files.filefront.com/Teuteburg.../fileinfo.html

[Apázlinemjó]

This was a Epic Battle Romany(spiritusdilutus and Mithck) vs Sweboz(Phalanx300 and Apaliznemjo)

the replay http://files.filefront.com/Teuteburg.../fileinfo.html

Yeah, it was a good call to use your cavalries together against me.

[Knight of Heaven]

Heres a battle replay from a 2v1, me with Mithick(romanoi)v Khan(Pontus), and how pontus lose the chariots before the battles actualy starts.We use those 2v1 rules, each one only had max 3 elites and only 10 units max, i dint brought any cav but Mithick brought 3 with the general included....
well the battle was in the woods, but Khan had 4 elites phalanx and alot heavy inf. and 2 cretan archers and 2 cav, also the 2 chariots. Still was fun i only had 4 cohorts and manage to play phalanx into the midle of my men while i hold the line. here it his
http://files.filefront.com/Romavpont.../fileinfo.html

here some screens

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The pontic army,and 2 cav hiden somewere in those woods

the general is runnig from fire arrows omg

phalanx in the left/Midle flank powned

Elite Phalanx doomed

Elite Phalanx shouldnt folow in trough that gap in the midle

[Duguntz]

Hey guys, the forum's back from the dead! so what's the news for the tournament? when will it begin officially? phalanx300, you're kills were great against the Romans! a real Sweboz indeed!

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, the forums (seem to be) are back. As for the Tournament itself, if you take a look further up you'll see we are going to do some test battles with 30-40,000 mnai and see if this works out.

Maion

[HunGeneral]

Good luck to the tests people.

I'm afraid I'm out for while - my comp is going crazy again - must be some kind of Hardware problem... until it's working normal again I can't play EB (now thats bad news for me :-(

I hope to get it fixed soon. I will however keep my eyes on the tournament - hopefully I can participate when it begins...

[darius_d]

On hamachi EBOT01 is full, inactive users please leave the network.

[antisocialmunky]

Can someone kick all inactives in EBOT01?

My old nick is now invalid. So kick it. I had to reformat my computer and hamachi doesn't do account control at all.

[vartan]

http://www.tunngle.net/en/

[JinandJuice]

Interesting. It definitely allows for account management, but it looks just like a beefed up version of Hamachi, hence requiring more resources. The "Highest possible Gamer performance" doesn't really say anything either.

[antisocialmunky]

LOL, I make 1 thread and post in the EB Online and get no responses, but Vartan posts a link and gets some feed back. *roll eyes*

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117733

The only real advantage is that its 255 room limit.

[Duguntz]

HEEEEYYYY! I think i had the idea that will make everybody happy in that ''phalanx'' debat! An idea hat leaves phalanx with all their adventage in the open, but to counter it, will make them live hell else were... so like in the real live, they better have army suited for terrain not to get butchered...
OK, i know, it is a post I already posted, but while devloping it i tough it was better fitted for here... There was a debat against : the exploit of a phalanx, by charging head on the pikes, with decent armour, any good swordman could succesfully disrupt their formation, the, enter an AP unit in the hole and byebye pike phalanx in... 0 min 23 sec... and honestly, even as a civilisation hater (sweboz (yeah)) I can understand that it's frustrating... so to make everybody happy I tought of those tweaks, wich dosen't allow any ''cheat'' form nobody, but also makes the battle more fun and challenging, (of corse, that demand a fairplay and honesty by the players, as it's like a kind of houserule... for tournament...)

So to break a Phalanx from front is cheating? let say that I agree... But what about that, to compare cheat with cheat : In danse woods.. your pikes stay in a perfect formation, as impenetrable than in the open!!! (and I unfortunatly tasted it myself many times!) yeah, that's the fault of the system, I know it, but just as to charge in phalanx with good enough swordmen is also the fault of the system... when you sprang an ambush and you wait far in the woods and hope for a disruption, Dang, how disapointing it is... Because for the sake of NOT cheating, yeah, i hope that the woods would disrupt any pike formation, and more than that, physicly make it impossible to enter a decent formation... So guys, here's the deal : I'm agree with you and start campaining against, and forbiding in my games the use of the system and exploit against phalanx-pike. But on the other side, pikes do not use ''phalanx'' ability in danse woods... too much? think about a pike of 21 foot in the forest and tell me if it's too much... I think it's fair for everybody, no cheat and no cheat, and that way neither player would exploit the system...

I know not everybody will agree, but I think it's a good compromise, leaving everybody with the advantage he should have, and, only my opinion, makes the battle somewhat more fun. Any opinion guys?

[Maion Maroneios]

any good swordman could succesfully disrupt their formation, the, enter an AP unit in the hole and byebye pike phalanx in... 0 min 23 sec..

Sigh... Could I see some proof of this please? You are again talking about personal oppinions and rather bold statements without any evidence to speak of. I don't know any occassion in which non-phalangites penentrated a pikewall without disrupting the formations first by using uneven terrain, or pilae/heavy javelins in general.

I do agree with you that the phalanx is too strong. It hold out too much, while it keeps a relatively disciplined formation when fighting in woods. Plus they are too impervious against projectiles from the front, I believe. But that doesn't mean I'm going to allow the phalanx exploit to be implemented. No sir.

As for this "idea", let me just tell you that its almost impossible to keep an eye out for the entire army all the time. Usually, I just neglect my pikemen when they engage and focus on the flanks which requires serious micromanagement and synchronisation. So basically I can't go and turn the phalanx formation on and off all the time when figting anywhere.

Maion

[Knight of Heaven]

Dugunz with respect i belive you dont understand what phalanx exploit is... its not charging trough pike from the front that you can do it, with your own peril, and not a good tactic i might add even with good swordsman, or spartans if you want.
The phalanx exploit can be done against any unit not only phalanx, the problem is the phalanx is more vulnerable, becouse of their week spots in the flanks and rear.
This exploit is not a tactic its something its impossible to do in real life, is walking trough a unit ignoring the enemy unit, so the enemy units becomes surrounded. this never happens in real life. and i belive it never happen with Medieval 2 TW also, now the only times i do this exploit is sometimes in defending sieges on walls, becouse units dont work so nice on walls...but i shouldnt do it, i cheat on walls :( lol
As for the forest men, what i can tell you.... there is space betwenn the trees..so... just stop charging against the pikes from the front, you ill never win , i never win. From the front a phalanx is invencible, but from rear and from flanks they die like flies. and they also suck in terrains with great inclinations. Want a tip to destroy hellenic armies??? destroy helenic cav and flanking forces first.Alone phalanxes dont have much use, most of the times. This exploit i belive need a diferent name then "phalanx exploit" becouse you can do it against any unit...so.

[Maion Maroneios]

That was, finally, a good and reasonable post to see.

Maion

[Duguntz]

guys you missed my point... i was speaking about phalanx exploit. IN GAME, not in life! I know you don't charge on pike common! but I was seeking a way to stop exploiting the system in game, as I see so many post of pikes addicted that hate that kind of cheat. I was talking about the ''walk threw the phalanx without caring'' thing. not about real life tactics! It's just to slow down the cheating and to have more fun!
and yeah, there'S space between trees... but put a tree between each pikes (or even 1 tree per 2-3 pikes) and you'll found the phalanx much less effective! To pass a pike between trees, of corse you can... to move a whole phalanx unit, it's completly something else! Think about it pal!
anyway, i knew the idea would not be popular with hellenes players, as they'd get butchered in the woods! just as we get buchered in the open as barbarians! Fairness never makes everybody happy!
So guys, i'm trying to find another way than lowering mnai limit, so everybody is happy... And I still think that the idea is a great one!!!

[Maion Maroneios]

I alreay proposed the 3-phase battles for Tournament matches.

Say player X is chosen to play against player Y. First player X attacks player Y in his [Y] scenario of choise. Then, payer Y attacks in a scenario chosen by the other [X]. If you get 1 victory each, you move to a third battle with a scenraio chosen randomly.

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

Perhaps we should require that all phalangites must stay out of defense mode in forests. That usually totally jacks up the formation. :-p

Though it does make them super ridiculous uncontrollable killing machines. I haven't even seen anyone use this so I can't help but feel that this is trying to solve a non-existant problem.

The tournement is fine as it is and the 35K games I've tested play out quite well. 30K is a little biased towards those with massive cheap hordes.

[Duguntz]

Perhaps we should require that all phalangites must stay out of defense mode in forests. That usually totally jacks up the formation. :-p

.

Seconded... for pikes as well in forest. i mean... realisticly, for all hellene players, you really think that holding a phalanx with sarrisas in the woods EFFECTIVLY is possible? I dream to se an ambush of phalanx only once in my life (that was sarcasm!)!!! Be realist on that point, yeah, pikes get butchered when in the forest. If you don't like the idea, use other troops when you fight on a forested land!!!

[Knight of Heaven]

this is not true i beat barbarians armies in forests with épirus, and with phalanxes, you just need more micromanagenment, forest bonus dont have much efect if you fight a phalanx from the front, the thing is in forest is more hard to keep track becouse you cant see.
Well dugunz for instance phalanx exploit in real life dont exist, its only a game issue, and if you are defending it , then you dont mind i use this exploit on your units?? they route too its not a matter of being a phalanx.
I belive you still dont understand what i said, charging to pikes could happen and if you turn off guard mode, they will charge the phalanx,but this isnt a exploit this is not cheat you can atack from the front charging.
What we are talking about is diferent, exploit is with when you order units to move fast, behond the enemy unit, trough enemy unit so they ill become surrounded they do not atack just run trough units. well im sorry but this is ridiculous.
About the woods i realy dont agree,a unit sometimes gets disrrupted by a tree in a mildle or something like rocks. i belive is very hard to win with phalanxe in the woods...its jus i dont understant why people charge naked people in to a wall of pikes.
the romans beat the makedonian phalanxes by avoiding then, and useing the fast moving manipules to flanked then its matter of doing the same with other troops..why do we need to engage phalanx?? to hold then there?? lol thats doing what they want. i have a question, when in campaing do you see AI charging pikes from the front??
I dont, using alex engine i see AI avoiding then and they only charge when i have my phalangities with standard formation, with their pikes in the air...so this tells me something.
I belive holding a phalanx in the woods is possible, very possible,and the trees only help what is hard is using the "hammer" in the woods using cavalry efective in the woods.
what i give you the point is, we seing to manny phalanx in an army and army shouldnt have so manny, we should restrict their number we dont need 6. 4 will be ideal i belive,this if we are going for most historical armies and in the first post says but just a sugestion.

[vartan]

I believe it is quite ridiculous how phalanxes hold up in the woods. Very, very unbelievable. Just check it for yourselves.

@antisocialmunky: I think people should just dump Hamachi if you really take a look at Tunngle. I mean, 255 room limit with automatic removal of the user from network once you quit the program? Hamachi doesn't even come close.