using a neighbors wifi: is it stealing?

[Hooahguy]

a friend of mine asked me my opinion: sometimes when his parents ban him from wifi, he uses his neighbors unlocked wifi. i think that while it is stealing, since you are stealing bandwith, it shouldnt be punished by the police.
he says that since his neighbor is dumb enough to keep it unlocked, its ok to use it.
thoughts?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's stealing and he should teach his neibour to to lock the wi-fi as well.

[HoreTore]

I wouldn't mind someone "stealing" my bandwidth, so long as it doesn't hamper my own bandwidth needs.

Ie., I have way too much bandwidth anyway. Most of the time I only need a small part of it, I couldn't care less if someone used what I don't use.

For the record, my wifi is unlocked, but my neighbors live around 200m away, so my signal isn't strong enough for them to use. However, I live just next to a playground, and there are plenty of people there at times, if some guy there needed teh intarwebs a little to check his mail or something(it's not like you'd do much else on a playground), I could not care less.

Encryption is really easy to do. If I didn't want someone to "steal" my bandwidth, it would be easy as hell to stop it. I say that if it's not encrypted, it's ok. Because 1. if he cared about it he would encrypt it and 2. if he doesn't know how to encrypt a network, he isn't smart enough to notice decreased bandwidth anyway, and what people don't know can't hurt them.

[KukriKhan]

a friend of mine asked me my opinion: sometimes when his parents ban him from using the family car, he uses his neighbors unlocked car. i think that while it is stealing, since you are stealing bandwith, it shouldnt be punished by the police.
he says that since his neighbor is dumb enough to keep his car unlocked, its ok to use it.
thoughts?

Substitute "car", or any other object or service, for "wifi", and the issue becomes clearer, for me.

[InsaneApache]

Agreed Kukri.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Substitute "car", or any other object or service, for "wifi", and the issue becomes clearer, for me.

I don't agree with substituting other objects--seems to oversimplify the issue.

I would say that you shouldn't use your neighbors wifi, and that they "he doesn't encrypt it so he deserves it" rationalization is hooey. But I also think that it's wrong to make a big deal out of it being wrong. It's like crying wolf.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

[Andres]

Tell his parents that next time they want to ban him from the internet, they should just take away his laptop/a few cables + mouse and keyboard from his desktop.

[CBR]

Substitute "car", or any other object or service, for "wifi", and the issue becomes clearer, for me.

So where does a hotshot fit into that analogy? Either the neighbour does not know about security or he wants to be nice guy or use the open wifi as an excuse in case someone discovers all his downloading porn from torrents.


CBR

[Beskar]

I like how it looks like CBR has really thought through this situation. From personal experience? *tease*

[rasoforos]

People have the choice to leave their wireless unlocked or lock it. What is important is that they are informed about the risks of an unlocked wireless by their ISP.

I tend to find a lot of unlocked networks and I think it is more of out of the ignorance than the generosity of the proper owners.

[CBR]

I like how it looks like CBR has really thought through this situation. From personal experience? *tease*

Heh. Well I remember reading about such a (successful) defense not long ago. Hotspots are becoming more widespread so there are an awful lot of "unlocked cars" these days

CBR

[Hooahguy]

Tell his parents that next time they want to ban him from the internet, they should just take away his laptop/a few cables + mouse and keyboard from his desktop.

id prefer not to meddle in the affairs of him and his parents.

[Reverend Joe]

I'm sure if he just asked his neighbor,t he guy would be OK with it; but the fact that he doesn't ask bothers me.

[rory_20_uk]

I think it depends on the usage.

The extremes would be

• checking emails every 1/2 hour / light surfing
• torrenting gamez / applicationz / p0rn / kiddie picz

The first is not going to be noticed whatsoever. The second is not only going to saturate the link, but is breaching several laws at the same time.

Ergo, the first is fine, the second is not.

[Gregoshi]

In the grand scheme of the universe, it is a minor thing. However, from the standpoint of the right thing to do, what your friend is doing is the wrong thing. He is using something that has value and someone else has paided for. If he asked for and received his neighbor's permission to use the wifi first, then it would be okay. However, your friend has no incentive to say anything to the neighbor because he is using this "free" wifi to get around a punishment handed to him by his parents. If his parents catch him, I imagine his punishment will be even worse - the original offense + "stealing" from a neighbor + violating the wifi ban.

[Jolt]

[*]kiddie picz

kiddie picz are not very heavy (I suppose). Unless the double crime inherent to that makes the file even bigger. OR they have Super-Uber-Hi-Res-of-Doom! OR they took a hi-res pic of a Titan's child.

In any case it is stealing. One of my uncles is one of them leet hackers (He's like 58 years old), and he betayed my aunt, took a long trip around Europe with his escapee, got into trouble and came back to my semi-abandoned grandmothers house (Its like a vacation house. Sorta.) a km away from his original home. Since he had loads of computers (Like 5.) but no internet at my grandmother's house, he got a 10 day trial from one of those USB pen-nets. Bought a few amplifying antenas (To pick the wifi better), and cracked most of the wifi encryptions he could pick up in my grandmother's house. Then he turned it into a fricking informatic station (He was careful to check the bandwidth he spent from each wifi). A few days after he accomplished that, he was pardoned by my aunt and came back to his original house. He still "stole" some bandwidth. I remember a few years ago, he would hijack transmitions TV satelites to his house. He basically was seeing every channel in the world at will.

[HoreTore]

In any case it is stealing.

Quite irrelevant, since not all stealing is bad in any way, as it may be either justified or irrelevant. IMO, this is a case of the latter.

[Jolt]

Quite irrelevant, since not all stealing is bad in any way, as it may be either justified or irrelevant. IMO, this is a case of the latter.

I never pronounced myself it is legitimate or not to steal wifi. I just said it was stealing. And for all legal purposes and matters, it is.

[HoreTore]

I never pronounced myself it is legitimate or not to steal wifi. I just said it was stealing. And for all legal purposes and matters, it is.

Alright-y then

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's stealing, but if he's on friendly terms with the neighbours maybe he could ask if its OK to use it and maybe they will play dumb.

Oh yeah, and DO NOT tell his parents about it!

[Lemur]

Substitute "car", or any other object or service, for "wifi", and the issue becomes clearer, for me.

Disagree. If I take your car, you have no car. If you log onto my wifi, I still have my wifi. Your bandwidth changes my monthly bill not at all. Analogy fail.

Look, it's 2009. Most people who do not apply WPA to their wifi are either (a) terminal tech idiots or (b) deliberately sharing. And there are more people doing (b) than you might suspect. Variety of motivations -- some people just want to share to feel good, some have political motivations, some believe that unlocked wifi is a defense against filesharing prosecution. That's just for starters.

I think the concerns you should feel about using open wifi points should be pragmatic, not moral. Odds are very high that you visit wesbites with passwords (like, say, the Org). Be advised that such passwords and activity are easy to sniff by someone who has access to the open wifi access point. Frankly, any activity you engage in while on open wifi should be vanilla in the extreme. You are in public, from a networking perspective.

Theft? Not exactly. But there are concerns.

[Xiahou]

Using unlocked wireless is gray at best. Sure, some people leave their wireless deliberately open for guests- just like I'm sure there are people who deliberately leave their front doors unlocked in case someone wants to stop by.

However, just like leaving your door unlocked doesn't mean an open invitation to strangers, neither does an open wireless AP. You're still accessing someone's network without their express permission.

Sure, I've done it a few times before when travelling, but I don't delude myself into thinking they've given me their permission just by not using encryption.

[InsaneApache]

Quite irrelevant, since not all stealing is bad in any way, as it may be either justified or irrelevant. IMO, this is a case of the latter.

I'd just love to hear you expand on why stealing is fine.

It is wrong.

It destroys wealth.

It's antisocial.

It causes deprivation and hardship.

It rewards wrong doing.

Like the thread in the frontroom about the 'free' telly. Nothing except fresh air is 'free', neither should it be.

Yes, tell me your thoughts on this HoreTore, I'd really like to know.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Man, I did a double take on the thread title, at first I read wifi as wife. I'm not stealing just borrowing for about 10 minutes...whoops didn't even take that long.

Borrowing/using a neighbor's property without their consent or acknowledgement is wrong. Yes, it's piggy-backing on a signal and usually doesn't affect the owner's use, but that's a slippery slope of a justification. Your friend is in double jeopardy because he's not supposed to be online as a disciplinary restriction...in for a penny in for a pound.

How far does a signal typically reach? I don't have mine password encrypted because we live in an area with just one neighbor who is within 75 feet of the house; all the rest are 200-300 yards distant.

[KukriKhan]

2005 CNet article on wifi "mooching"

What happens if someone does something unsavory with my Wi-Fi connection? Can I get in trouble?
This is another area of ambiguity. "I don't think you would ever be held vicariously liable for unwittingly allowing someone to use your network even if they're trafficking in child pornography. You're just considered a victim in that case," says Christian Genetski, an information security lawyer at Sonnenschein, Nath and Rosenthal. "It'd be different if you set up your own open relay server and looked the other way while spammers sent billions of messages through your open relay, and you were put on notice and did nothing to stop it."

Still, one reason to tighten up your Wi-Fi security is that an open wireless connection can be used for mischief. In September, a California man pleaded guilty to spamming people through open Wi-Fi hot spots.

Look, it's 2009.... Theft? Not exactly. But there are concerns.

Is that not the same rationalization that justifies copying movies and music? Everybody does it, so it must be OK? Especially if it's digital-related property?

@HosakawaTito: I think about 300 feet is the usual radius of transmission for most home-based systems.

[Kralizec]

a friend of mine asked me my opinion: sometimes when his parents ban him from wifi, he uses his neighbors unlocked wifi. i think that while it is stealing, since you are stealing bandwith, it shouldnt be punished by the police.
he says that since his neighbor is dumb enough to keep it unlocked, its ok to use it.
thoughts?

I don't approve, but on the other hand I don't approve of ratting out someone after he just confided in you either. I'd try to convince him to stop, or alternatively tell his neighbour to lock his wifi without telling him about your friend.

Disagree. If I take your car, you have no car. If you log onto my wifi, I still have my wifi. Your bandwidth changes my monthly bill not at all. Analogy fail.

Taking advantage of another persons wifi is getting a free ride on another person's expenses. It's not technically theft but not that much different either, IMO.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Quite irrelevant, since not all stealing is bad in any way, as it may be either justified or irrelevant. IMO, this is a case of the latter.

Please elaborate. If you are justified in "stealing" something, is it still stealing?

IE, I imagine that committing injustice is inherent to the definition, but maybe I'm committing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy...

Just as rape isn't rape if there isn't a breach of consent (ignoring statutory rape for this example).

[Ice]

Technically it is stealing, but unless he is invading their privacy, it really isn't a big deal and the police better not waste their time dealing with it.

[Adrian II]

Man, I did a double take on the thread title, at first I read wifi as wife.

So did I, so I asked myself what the fuss was about. Then it turned out to be Wai-Fai, an electronic gadget. Now that's male territory, that's serious business.

Turns out I was wrong again, apparently. It seems a man was actually arrested for Wi-Fi piggybacking in Michigan in 2007. He was sentenced to a 400 buck fine or 40 hours of community nose-picking. This blog had a nice comment on it at the time:

If you buy a newspaper and read it whilst sitting on a train, very often people might look over your shoulder and have a look at the headlines. They are consuming information you just paid for - are they stealing? No, of course not.

Some people may have their wifi connection open and secured because they actually want people to share it. How can we tell what someone's intention is when they decide to transmit an open network?

In fact, it points to the opposite:

In actual fact, by broadcasting your connection details you are almost tampering with my laptop or wireless device. If someone set their wireless access point's SSID as the worst obscenity possible and caused that word to appear on your screen by broadcasting it to your Wifi equipment, are you in the wrong for receiving it, or are they in the wrong for sending it? Who is it that has committed the crime?

So I think it's not like stealing KukriKhan's car after all. Or his yak.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It's stealing and it is wrong. Relatively minor, however.

I don't believe everyone who's got an open wi-fi is doing so intentionally. They hardly sell routers without wif-fi nowadays. People walk in to a store, buy a router, hook it up, get it working and then pay no more attention. They don't know or don't even think about the fact that their neighbors may start mooching. We here at this forum are quite different from the average person.

And for some people bandwidth can be a finite monthly resource.

CR