Dumb Diplomacy: 2nd 'Screw the Player Event' Avoided.

[AussieGiant]

If it proves to be true and it's certainly seems to be the case with what you have observed Dayve, then it does seem a very rudimentary way of ensuring the player faction is constantly at war in one way or another.

This is quite artificial and there should be a far more sophisticated system in place which is what I think all of us want, but it is a Total War game and being able to complete the game or fulfil campaign objectives completely peacefully would seem to be counter intuitive and best left for other games which promote that type of game play.

Diplomacy in Total War (in my opinion of course) should be an extension of power and it's usage.

And Dayve, can you refrain from labelling my opinion as "rubbish"?

PLEASE?!

[Dayve]

If it proves to be true and it's certainly seems to be the case with what you have observed Dayve, then it does seem a very rudimentary way of ensuring the player faction is constantly at war in one way or another.

This is quite artificial and there should be a far more sophisticated system in place which is what I think all of us want, but it is a Total War game and being able to complete the game or fulfil campaign objectives completely peacefully would seem to be counter intuitive and best left for other games which promote that type of game play.

Diplomacy in Total War (in my opinion of course) should be an extension of power and it's usage.

And Dayve, can you refrain from labelling my opinion as "rubbish"?

PLEASE?!

Well... i would if you'd stop defending the most pathetic excuses for AI, they're clearly crap. There are other ways for war to be declared than a pathetic scripted event, and i don't think diplomacy should be just an extension of power. These games aren't called Total War because you're supposed to be at war 24/7, they're called Total War because it's catchy. Some people, me being one of them, enjoy playing politically and without war as much as playing WITH war. I like wars in a 5 year burst every 20 years. The rest, i like peace and consolidation, revolution and diplomacy. I like funding wars rather than fighting them most of the time.

I don't always feel like fighting a battle every single turn in the game, and i should be able to achieve that, at least some of the time. As it is, i can't. I can't have any peace. Peace is more important than war, In reality, nations back then were involved in a major war for maybe 15-20% of a century, AT WORST! Not 100% of it.

[Didz]

Well speaking as someone who took great pride in being one of the few players to win Shogun Totalwar without declaring war on anyone, I would argue that 'The Player' should be given the choice of how he wants to play the game, and that the game should be designed to allow him to make that choice, not railroad him into 400 turns of meaningless conflict.

ETW is supposed to be a strategy game, that in itself implies that the player should be able to use some level of strategy in order to prevail.

[AussieGiant]

@ Dayve: So you'll stop stating my opinion is "rubbish" if I stop saying that CA have done a reasonable job on the AI and have room to improve? i.e. defending that point?

In addition you just stated that the Total War series is named "Total War" because it's catchy, rather than the concept that the games will be about war and perhaps "a lot of war'?

Let me ask you another question.

What would it take for you to agree that there are other points of view in this game that are as valid as yours?


@Didz:

What I meant by script is a piece of code, not a preset time for a DOW to occur. Meaning, there is a script running that periodically selects a random time, for a random faction to declare war on the player faction.

This of course would have absolutely nothing to do with any aspect of the game and what is happening in it. This does seem to be what has been observed by yourself and Dayve.

I'd say we agree on this.

The difference is, your stance on this is that it screws up the game, while my stance is that it seems to be a piece of code designed to ensure the player faction is not left "alone" for too long. That seems somewhat acceptable as Empire: Total Peace is not the solution.

Having said that, I just want to say what I said before. IF, this is the case, then it does seem a little pathetic after so many years of AI programming by CA. I expect a fully immersive interactive, AND slightly random, AI diplomacy system by now. I certainly see you point in terms of feeling "played" rather than "playing" the game.

[Servius]

I had an identical experience with the Dutch, except that I never made peace with the Spanish. After I took Westphalia, I made all my new neighbors my protectorates. So far, in all the games I've played, only once has one of my protectorates declared war on me. F*cking Mysore in southern India, while I was the Dutch and held whatever region is shaped like a J at the southern tip of India.

I have also had the experience of the game seemingly needed me to be at war with someone. I too think that's silly. The point of war is to hopefully achieve a peace that's more beneficial to you than the peace you had before you were at went to war. World domination is not a viable goal, evidenced by Rome and Great Britain. Perpetual war is also silly since it a never-ending war is an extremely inefficient use of resources. Therefore, peace (albiet one advantageous to you) is the logical goal.

[Didz]

What I meant by script is a piece of code, not a preset time for a DOW to occur. Meaning, there is a script running that periodically selects a random time, for a random faction to declare war on the player faction.

Oh! well I don't think anyone has suggested that the DOW event is not caused by a piece of code. ETW is a computer program after all.

No, in the context of this discussion I am using the term script/scripted to define an predetermined event or sequence of events which will occur based upon a set of predetermined conditions. e.g. 'It's 1776 so the American Revolution will Start', or 'The King of Austria has died, France has declared war on Austria and a French Privateer has just attacked an British East Indiamen in the Channel.'

The difference is, your stance on this is that it screws up the game, while my stance is that it seems to be a piece of code designed to ensure the player faction is not left "alone" for too long. That seems somewhat acceptable as Empire: Total Peace is not the solution.

Yes! My opinion is that this is a game breaker.

Empire Totalwar is a Strategy Game, not a shoot'em'up. By implication as a strategy game it should present the player with a celebral challenge not a click-fest challenge. Therefore, throwing random mobs at the player just to screw up his chances of winning is not acceptable, just as the random barrage ballons in the Dambuster Simulation game was not acceptable in the flight simulation programme.

In my opinion its lazy system design, especially as its clear that someone actually did put some effort into trying to produce a decent diplomacy system. Basically, it looks to me as though someone at CA with a time constraint or lack of interest overruled the design team and told them to stop wasting time trying to produce a decent diplomacy system and just throw in a Random DOW generator.

Basically, any idiot could do that in five minutes, but what it has left us with is a broken diplomacy system (or at best one thats unfinished) and a game that can't be played as a strategy game becuase it doesn't respond logically to the players actions and doesn't present the player with any viable strategic options, other than blitz everything that moves.

As you say, this is all rather pathetic. After so many years in the business one would have expected better from CA. The only good news is that there is a work around.

The sad news is of course that because all DOW's are random, not only do stupid ones occur, such as Poland declaring war on New Spain. But the reverse is equally true, and situations which truly do warrant an AI faction going to war actually get ignored.

Lol! I quite literally just finished typing the above when I actually had a DOW that made a lot of sense. In fact, if I didn't already know that they were completely random I would have been quite impressed. The situation was that my army in America under General McDowell having captured Georgia from the Cherokee had noticed that the reason Georgia had been unguarded was that the Cherokee had just captured Florida off the Spanish. Considering this to be an opportunity too good to miss McDowell had marched south and seized Florida destroying what he thought was the main Cherokee force defending it. I was feeling quited pleased with myself until a large Cherokee force appeared in Carolina and overan the colonials trashing the entire colony before marching north and repeating the dirty deed in Virginia. (For some reason the Colonials have been investing heavily in a Navy instead of defending their homes.)

Anyway, McDowell force marches North, recaptures Carolina and heads off on the road to Williamsburg, Virginia. So, I'm thinking...hey this is not so bad I'm gaining extra provinces here without having to complete the 13 Colonies mission, perhaps I should let the indian's trash the other colonial states.

End Turn: Random DOW - France declares war on the Thirteen Colonies are you prepared to defend your Ally? (Spain is an Ally of France) Doh!

Now! as I say that would have been clever, if I didn't know already that it was pure chance. France has decided to invade Maine from the North and grab itself some extra land whilst the colonies are in a state of disarray and I'm up to my ears in Indian's. Add to that the fact that France and Spain together have a decent sized navy and I could be in trouble.

Unfortunately, things didn't quite go Frances way. Again if I thought there was any logic behind the event I would have said that France had misread the diplomatic situation. The first thing that went wrong for them was that Spain declined to join the war, leaving them all alone to face Britain and its navy. The second thing that went wrong was that the Colonists declared their independance the United States emerges early and Frances Army was teleported back to Canada. At the same time all the Indian's were sent back to back to their reservations. So, instead of an elegant 'coupe de main', France is now right back where it started with its arse hanging out of its pants.

But it was a nice try, shame it wasn't the result of some clever programming by CA.

[Liberator]

I play Prussia and I realized that Poland and Sweden seem to declare war to me at random.
The strange thing is that they often do not attack immediately, maybe just block a port or do nothing at all. When I offer them peace (and nothing else but maybe a trade-agreement) the next round, they always accept!

[Fisherking]

The original diplomacy was better. Allies stuck with you, your relationship mattered, and the only oddball DoWs were from the North American Tribes.

When they went to war you knew that you were in for it because they had strong armies.

Now they are all feeble and destitute. They may be on friendly terms and have nothing to gain by going to war except becoming more feeble and more destitute, or just plain dead.

People wanted it more aggressive but less powerful…well it was a big mistake. They went too far with everything.

It is just my opinion but I think the game started off pretty good. It had issues but the game seemed good. There was a bit too much cash when you really got up and running but the AI made you sweat to start off. Also if you had agreements they usually stuck with them. If they went to war you might see a motive behind it. Now it is just random madness. The biggest detractor is that when they go to war they lack the means to put up a credible defense, let-alone any attack more than just a few raids.

[Dayve]

I agree. In the last patch, diplomacy was much better. Still crap overall, but much better than what we have now. That goes for the whole game. In fact, the only problem the game had before this latest patch was that everybody had way too much money. We've gone from one extreme to the other, now nobody has any money at all.

The human player has a hard time financially at the start, but if you can survive the first 10 years and make some half-decent decisions economy wise, you can give your economy a good kickstart, you can even put yourself in a situation where you have too much money and the game becomes boring, but i don't do that because, well, the game becomes boring.

The problem is that the AI just can't get their own economy going. This is less true for purely land based people like Russia, Prussia, Poland and Austria, who make money because they expand all the time and have more provinces to tax, but even they begin to royally struggle toward mid-game, and they slow down completely. For sea and trade based factions like Britain, France, Spain and UP, the game is over right from the start, because they simply don't understand how to use their empires for profit, and the tax is so low due to low populations in colonies that they are bankrupt right from the second turn, unless the human plays them.

[Ordani]

I don't always feel like fighting a battle every single turn in the game.

More importantly, it's a pretty boring game when you've won by 1705 after weathering the initial deluge of incompetent belligerence.

[AussieGiant]

@ Didz. Liked your last post.

I completely understand your position.

Funny example you gave of what seems to be semi intelligent play by France, which, if the end result had not been so bad, would have been quite a move by the French AI.

[Dayve]

More importantly, it's a pretty boring game when you've won by 1705 after weathering the initial deluge of incompetent belligerence.

Sometimes it's hard not to though. I mean, sometimes an AI faction declares war on you and won't accept peace, and all they do every turn is raid your towns with units of militia or militia cavalry, and after 4 or 5 turns you just think SCREW IT and come down on them like a ton of bricks and spank them so hard that they'll never recover because you've taken half their land and gifted it to an ally to create a buffer between their annoying asses and you, and you've unbalanced the balance of power without wanting to, and i work hard to balance things out, i watched Prussia spend the first 5 years of this campaign steamrolling east and west, so i gifted Russia and Poland with all the bayonet tech and things began to balance out.

[Didz]

One thing I've done in the past is post militia units in my outlying settlements. I find sometimes the fact that they have to attack something disuades them from raiding. When playing the Dutch I even went all out and invested in a full border defence of Vauban fortifications, just in case the French decided to get ambitious.