Roman Legion composition?

[DaciaJC]

They simply don't fill the other ten slots?

[Kevin]

Uh, why ?

[DaciaJC]

Ignore my previous post. It was meant as a joke.

From what I make of it, the first 10 slots in a stack are reserved for the core Roman units - Hastati, Principes, Triarii and the like. The second half is composed of allied troops. Each half comprise one legion, and so one stack is a consular army.

Again, this is my interpretation, and it can be wrong, as I don't restrict my stack-composition to historical ratios.

Reading the first post from this thread may result in a greater degree of understanding.

[SwissBarbar]

It's simple: Romans are not meant to fight enemies by outnumbering them. You can make 1 legion with 4 Hastati, 4 Principes and 2 Triarii and some Pediets and heavy Cav. if you want, but you will beat the crap out of every other army ... and some - like me - do not consider this to be funny.

1 Legion = 10 Slots, inkl. General(s). An if you're going on a great campaign against the enemy, you can put together 2 legions (1 Roman and 1 allied legion) and get 1 army. Of course, if you fight a Ptolemaic or Seleukid half-world-empire, you will need more that 2 Legions to beat them. It's funny - later in the game - to start a 10 or 20 Legions - offensive.

It's difficult, but I try not to have war with more than 1 faction at once. And sometimes, if I am at war, I only try to defeat their main armies and then offer them (force them to) peace and make them pay. It's not funny just to conquer the world.

You will get very rich soon, with the Romans. The trick is not just to create one army after another. When I start the game, I use 2 legions (10 slots each) to secure my lands, and 2 units of Roarii per city to secure them. If I go to war with Epeiros I mostly put together the 2 legions and conquer Italy (incl. Bononia, Patavium and Segesta)... replacing units only when they get under 50 men. When I have conquered all of Italy and parts of Sicily (which I am going to do only, if Carthage declares war on me, which happenes when you play on VH/M quite soon), I create 2 more Legions, meaning I have 2 fullstacks then. One legion I station in Sicily, because I leave Syrakousai alone, if they are not conquered by Carthage before I put Carthage out of Sicily. Only if the Eleutheroi attack me in Sicily or southern Italy, I will consider it an attack from Syrakousai and conquer it. The other legion will secure the northern border to the Celtae, who very soon will attack too.

That's how I make the game more challenging and thereby interesting.

[Lanceari]

Historically, a Polybian maniple had about 120 men, while a post-Marian maniple would have a paper strength of 180 (typo: correct number is 80 x2 = 160)... A Polybian cohort had 360 men, while a post-Marian cohort had 480 men. A Polybian Legion had 3,600 legionaries, while a post Marian legion had 4,800 legionaires (plus supporting units).

I set EB to huge size units. EB Polybian units had 160 men, while EB post Marian units have 200 men.

I think of a legion as having a total of 40 units: 24 EB units of legionaries, plus another 16 supporting units. My legion has to be split in two stacks.

[Atilius]

..while a post-Marian maniple would have a paper strength of 180...

I don't know how you came up with that number. At the time of the professional armies of the Republic, the maniple had become largely obsolete as a tactical unit: Caesar never uses the word manipulus in De Bello Gallico and it appears only once in De Bello Civili. In contrast, the word cohors or cohortes appears dozens of times in those works. If the maniple continued to consist of two centuries it would have numbered about 160 men.

A Polybian cohort had 360 men, ...A Polybian Legion had 3,600 legionaries

The only way to divide a Polybian legion into cohorts is if you consider a cohort to be one maniple each of Hastati, Principes, and Triarii, plus 1/10 of the legion's Velites. That would normally come to 420 men, though it could be as many as 600. The Polybian legion normally had 4200 infantry and 300 cavalry, though infantry strength was commonly increased to 5200, and we know of at least one occasion (during the 3rd Macedonian War - Livy 44.21) when the infantry strength of two legions was raised to 6000.

[Lanceari]

I don't know how you came up with that number. At the time of the professional armies of the Republic, the maniple had become largely obsolete as a tactical unit: Caesar never uses the word manipulus in De Bello Gallico and it appears only once in De Bello Civili. In contrast, the word cohors or cohortes appears dozens of times in those works. If the maniple continued to consist of two centuries it would have numbered about 160 men.

The only way to divide a Polybian legion into cohorts is if you consider a cohort to be one maniple each of Hastati, Principes, and Triarii, plus 1/10 of the legion's Velites. That would normally come to 420 men, though it could be as many as 600. The Polybian legion normally had 4200 infantry and 300 cavalry, though infantry strength was commonly increased to 5200, and we know of at least one occasion (during the 3rd Macedonian War - Livy 44.21) when the infantry strength of two legions was raised to 6000.

180 was a typo. I corrected above. Marian centuries had 80 men. A maniple had two centuries. 80 x 2 = 160.

The smallest unit in the roman army was the contubernium. A contubernium was a squad of 8 men, who lived together, worked together, trained together and fought together.

During the Polybian era eight contubernia were grouped into a century: 8 x 8 = 64. Some historians believe that the Centurion, Optio, and Signifiers (the NCO's) were originally selected from among the 64 four men of century. But it seems this practice eventually change so that at least the Centurion was a senior member with more experience.

Sixty in latin is Sexaginta. It is possible that a Senturion (with S) may have been a person in charge of Sixtyfour men... And eventually the term century was adopted to mean a unit of sixty four men.

Centuries worked in pairs, two centuries formed a maniple. A Polybian maniple had 64 x 2 = 128 legionaries (except for triariis). The senior of the two centurions would lead the maniple. The maniple, not the century, was the tactical unit of the roman legion.

Triariis were different. Many historians think that the tirarii maniple had only one century, instead of two.

Polybian Cohorts had one maniple of hastati, one maniple of principes, and one maniple of triariis. Hence a Polybian cohort would have 2H +2P +1T = 5 centuries or 5 *64 = 320. A cohort would also have a number of velites attached to it. Sources are not clear as to the exact number of velites attached to each cohort. Furthermore, I am not sure whether velites were considered legionaries.

The legion had 10 cohorts, so if you account for the fact that Triarii maniples had only one century, you get 3,200 heavy legionaries per legion. This number does not include velites and other supporting units.

Marian centuries had 10 contubernia per century. Hence each century grew from 64 to 80 men. It seems that during the Marian era, centurions were senior soldiers drawn from other units. I do not know whether the other NCO's were drawn from the ranks or were senior soldiers drawn from other units.

In any event, a Marian century had 80 foot soldiers. Marian Centuries paired up to form Maniples of 160 men. At some point, triariis were eliminated, and thereafter a cohort was formed by three maniples of 160 men each: 160 x3 =480. A Marian legion had 10 cohorts. 10 x 480 =4,800 legionaries.

I understand Marian legionaries did not serve as velites. At some point after the Marian reforms light infantry and skirmishing was left to the auxilia, which were not Roman citizens. Not so for siege weapons. When a Marian legion was equipped with scorpions, a number of men were drawn from each century to man the scorpions. I think the same was true for other artillery/siege platforms, but my memory is not clear on this point.

Keep in mind that all the above numbers are paper strength only. Particularly for a Marian Legions, where men served at 16 years (or more depending on the time period), actual strength must have been substantially lower than paper strength.

Two thousand years ago, Maniples of 120 - 160 men were the tactical units of the Roman army. These maniples of 120-160 men, resemble EB's tactical units (EB cohorts) in large or huge setting.

...in this particular sense you may say I "consider a cohort to be a maniple". However, you could say that I consider a maniple to be maniple, while others consider a maniple to be a cohort.