Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church

[Lemur]

I oppose late-term abortions, but this is not the way to fight it. Gunning down a man in church in front of his wife? What kind of sick loser thinks that's a good idea? Change the law, don't resort to domestic terrorism. Waaaay too reminiscent of Theo van Gogh.

A thoughtful reaction:

"If anyone has an urge to kill someone at an abortion clinic, they should shoot me. ... It's madness. It discredits the right-to-life movement. Murder is murder. It's madness. You cannot prevent killing by killing." — John Cardinal O'Connor

Another:

The murder of George Tiller at his church is a heinous crime, without any sense or justice. Regardless of how one feels about George Tiller’s profession, his murderer is nothing more than a domestic terrorist — someone attempting to impose by force a policy that one cannot get in place through democratic means. Tiller’s killer is no better than William Ayers, Kathleen Soliah, and Eric Rudolph, people who attempted to use violence for their extremist ends. Those who value life know that murder is the antithesis of the pro-life movement. [...] Circumstantial evidence suggests that the motive was indeed political.

Beliefnet has an interesting article about how this links to the much-hated DHS report.

I was thoroughly dumbfounded at the conservative reaction to that report in April. If you read the report, it was quite clearly aimed a serious, violent, insane extremists. Yet mainstream conservatives took great offense, accusing the Obama administration of chillingly targeting the free-speech of conscientious anti-abortion citizens, veterans and conservatives writ large. [...]

Roeder seems exactly the sort of person that the DHS warned about.

The report suggested that the bad economy and the election of a black president could stimulate more anger and activity from "violent anti-government groups." Far from attacking anti-abortion activists in general, as many claimed, the report instead noted white supremacists' "longstanding exploitation of social issues such as abortion."

We'll see if Roeder maintained his ties to the militia groups or had shifted his focus to abortion only, but at a minimum, conservatives have to make a new choice: take seriously right wing extremists -- the real ones, not the bloviators -- or run the risk of truly being lumped together.

In a way, conservatives now face a choice similar to what liberals in the late 1960s and early 1970s faced during the heyday of the Weather Underground.

There is now exactly one doctor who is known to provide late-term abortions. I expect he's a marked man as well.

There's a right way and a wrong way. Murdering to score political points is the wrong way.

[Don Corleone]

I agree completely, Lemur. As horrific as Dr. Tiller's crimes against humanity have been, murdering him to stop them does nothing.

I pray for mercy for the souls of Dr. Tiller & Mr. Roeder.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It was wrong, but it's hard to feel sorry for such a monster.

It would be a different story if it wasn't late term abortions. I sympathise with abortionists views when the baby is no more than a lump of cells, but you can't be right in the head to carry out late-term abortions.

[Hooahguy]

I agree completely, Lemur. As horrific as Dr. Tiller's crimes against humanity have been, murdering him to stop them does nothing.

I pray for mercy for the souls of Dr. Tiller & Mr. Roeder.

QFT

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Lemur, you will be (hopefully) pleased to know that almost every pro-life group I know of has condemned this.

I agree completely, Lemur. As horrific as Dr. Tiller's crimes against humanity have been, murdering him to stop them does nothing.

I pray for mercy for the souls of Dr. Tiller & Mr. Roeder.

[seireikhaan]

Sad story in so many ways.

[CountArach]

It was wrong, but it's hard to feel sorry for such a monster.

Oh come on - this Doctor was performing a completely legal operation and was killed for it.

That sickens me quite frankly. That you would put your own anti-abortion views above feeling sorry for a man who was just murdered is utterly reprehensible.

[LittleGrizzly]

In church as well... sickening...

My condolences to his family

Edit: I wonder if maybe a military man involved in guantanamo bay, would you struggle to feel sorry if that monster was killed ?

[Lemur]

Lemur, you will be (hopefully) pleased to know that almost every pro-life group I know of has condemned this.

I don't know if "pleased" is the right word; "relieved" would describe my feelings more accurately. Although you say "almost" every group has condemned the killing — who has abstained? Scary to think that any mainstream political group could condone this.

I wonder if maybe a military man involved in guantanamo bay, would you struggle to feel sorry if that monster was killed ?

Not sure to whom this question was directed, but I'll bite: I don't think anyone involved with our torture policy should be murdered. Not the men who carried it out, not the lawyers who enabled it, not the executives giving the orders. This is America. We should never murder people with whom we disagree. If something is heinous and wrong, eventually we pass a law. Like Winston Churchill said, “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing — after they've tried everything else.”

[Ronin]

The great late Bill Hicks described the irony of this situation better than I could have ever done..

'these are pro-life people...who murder doctors...'

it´s irony on a base level, but it´s a hoot!

[LittleGrizzly]

Yeah basically Lemur i agree... it was kind of directed at rythfelwyr. Its a much greyer area if were talking about mass murdering dictators (though i still don't approve death penalty) but if were talking about people who do unsavoury things for thier Job, like say late term abortion doctor, enhanched intergation officer/solidier but things that aren't nessecarily illegal and are more of a grey area then thier murders are shocking and i do feel for them and thier family...

It may be unsavoury but they are just doing thier job, a job that through whatever process is legal in your country...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Although you say "almost" every group has condemned the killing — who has abstained?

Nobody that I can think of. Why are you relieved rather than pleased? I doubt that any of the major pro-life groups would condone this.

[Rhyfelwyr]

As I said his murder was wrong, but I don't care if he was just doing his job, or if it was legal. The Nazi guards at the concentration camps were just doing their jobs, and it would have been perfectly legal, but that doesn't make it right.

To be honest, I think you have to be a very sick person to carry out late term abortions.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Better yet, show me a pro-life group that condones it. It's absolutely antithetical to both those organizations and Christianity as a whole. "Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you" doesn't translate well into "blow away those you disagree with."

/in before all-faith-is-evil

[Xiahou]

It was wrong, but it's hard to feel sorry for such a monster

Yeah, that's where I am. The doctors murder was unhelpful and just plain wrong. Whatever he did, you can't justify his murder- but I can't feel sorry for the man anymore than I could a concentration camp executioner.

For a living, this man took babies who, were old enough live if born prematurely, and ripped them from their mother's wombs and killed them. The clinic even offered baptisms for aborted babies- how monstrous is that? I'm incapable of shedding any tears for him.

[Lemur]

Yeah basically Lemur i agree... it was kind of directed at rythfelwyr. Its a much greyer area if were talking about mass murdering dictators (though i still don't approve death penalty)

Well, hang on a second, I wasn't making an argument against the death penalty. If a person has a fair trial and is found guilty and sentenced, then so be it. I was saying that people should not be killed by other private citizens for their political actions, or to prove a political point.

Why are you relieved rather than pleased? I doubt that any of the major pro-life groups would condone this.

I am relieved because the abortion issue can bring out the extremist in people, and some of the rhetoric that gets used is kind of out-there. If pro-life groups are taking care to distance themselves from a clearly criminal man, why shouldn't I be relieved? I want an abortion compromise to be reached within my lifetime, and that means that people on both sides of the issue need to be rational and legitimate.

I could too easily see people saying, "It's a good day for 'Merica!" as some hick was shouting on Left4Dead last night. (I realize that a zombie-killing game is not a representative sample of the electorate.)

[tibilicus]

Got to love the hypocrisy of those pro-life protesters. So this guy deserved to be shot because he killed babies but by killing him they some how have to moral high ground? Hmmmmm

Similarities can also be drawn to those who are Christians yet support the death penalty. "Jesus told me to love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek but I support the death penalty because some people don't deserve my forgiveness" . It's a mad, mad world..

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Got to love the hypocrisy of those pro-life protesters. So this guy deserved to be shot because he "killed" babies but by killing him they some how have to moral high ground? Hmmmmm

Do you always use outliers to judge groups, or is it only with people you don't like?

[LittleGrizzly]

The Nazi guards at the concentration camps were just doing their jobs,

I was going to put a sentence in but i figured i would give godwins law a rest...

Its a little different shoving thousands of jews off to thier deaths every day.... i was thinking more american torturer in Gauntanamo bay than nazi gaurd...

Well, hang on a second, I wasn't making an argument against the death penalty. If a person has a fair trial and is found guilty and sentenced, then so be it. I was saying that people should not be killed by other private citizens for their political actions, or to prove a political point.

Basically i was agreeing... the part in brackets was more a side point not connected the rest...

Basically the part in brackets was saying despite the fact i would be less bothered about someone killing a mass murdering dictator like they killed this doctor... i still wouldn't approve of giving them the death penalty..

You know... incase any dictators were reading the .org and thought i was wishing them harm...

[seireikhaan]

Got to love the hypocrisy of those pro-life protesters. So this guy deserved to be shot because he killed babies but by killing him they some how have to moral high ground? Hmmmmm

Similarities can also be drawn to those who are Christians yet support the death penalty. "Jesus told me to love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek but I support the death penalty because some people don't deserve my forgiveness" . It's a mad, mad world..

Are you done trolling or are you ready to actually see people've been saying about the story? NOBODY here has said "way to go, buddy!" The man acted on his own, and received nearly zero support from every pro-life group. Stop being a total

[Samurai Waki]

This wasn't what the Pro Life Lobby wants, they want to end abortions, especially late term abortions. What this man is, is a cold blooded killer, not a representative for what Pro Lifers want. Of course he will be condemned, and will serve the rest of his days behind a steel curtain. He will never be the martyr, he thinks he is.

[Scurvy]

As I said his murder was wrong, but I don't care if he was just doing his job, or if it was legal. The Nazi guards at the concentration camps were just doing their jobs, and it would have been perfectly legal, but that doesn't make it right.

Its irrelevant - the consequences of such a death are felt mainly by the family of the victim. Feel sorry for them. (and I would seperate him from Nazi guards, he was apparently 1 of 2 people, they can truly claim to be binded by orders + fear, he could not)

Got to love the hypocrisy of those pro-life protesters. So this guy deserved to be shot because he killed babies but by killing him they some how have to moral high ground? Hmmmmm

Similarities can also be drawn to those who are Christians yet support the death penalty. "Jesus told me to love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek but I support the death penalty because some people don't deserve my forgiveness" . It's a mad, mad world..

I don't see why its neccessarily hypocritical for Christians/ Pro-Lifers to support the death penalty, afaik Pro-Lifers only argue everyone should be given a chance at life. As has been said, he is clearly not representative of the Pro-Life lobby anyway.

[Mooks]

This wasn't what the Pro Life Lobby wants, they want to end abortions, especially late term abortions. What this man is, is a cold blooded killer, not a representative for what Pro Lifers want. Of course he will be condemned, and will serve the rest of his days behind a steel curtain. He will never be the martyr, he thinks he is.

Meh, iv heard from ex-brainwashed women that used to be part of the pro-life movement the exact opposite, one a certain "Sciwoman" over at Richardawkins.net and another a neighbor . They can tell some heavy stories that went on when they were screaming and harassing women going to the abortion clinics. I got no doubt in my mind that "mainstream" pro-lifers are praising this terrorist behind closed doors.

Iv heard from other forums that the doctor that got assassinated only performed on 3rd trimester babies when it was apparent they would have severe birth defects, anyone else have information on this?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I got no doubt in my mind that "mainstream" pro-lifers are praising this terrorist behind closed doors.

Alright, so amount of people who know nothing about the pro-life movement in this thread tallies at: 1. I'll keep a running total, don't worry.

[Lemur]

Well, it certainly sounds as though a measurable percentage of people opting for late-term abortions are folks with severely damaged babies. Examples:

My wife and I are/were staunch choice advocates; we'd both done our share of marching on Washington for the cause. Actually enduring the process gave us a much more nuanced opinion about abortion.

For us, it was Trisomy 21 -- Down Syndrome. The test came after my wife awoke one night in a pool of blood screaming and thinking she'd suffered a miscarriage. After she ran to the toilet, it fell upon me to call her doctor and then scoop out the remains--that actually turned out to be huge clots--and take them to the doctor the next day. The geneticist said that because of all the bleeding and other complications there was almost no chance the fetus would make it to 20 weeks let alone full term.

My wife says one of my finest moments as her husband came when I somehow made her laugh while she awaited the abortion. My wife doesn't talk about her feelings of the abortion and the "failed" pregnancy. But we've been together for more than a decade and I know she will always be crushed by it. I know we made the right decision for us but it still hurts badly. This was the son we would never have.

----------

My wife and I spent a week in Dr. Tiller's care after we learned our 21 week fetus had a severe defect incompatible with life. The laws in our state prevented us from ending the pregnancy there, and Dr. Tiller was one of maybe three choices in the whole nation at that gestational age. My wife just called with the news of his murder, weeping. I can't really come up with some profound political statement just now, so let me just list some memories of Dr. Tiller.

I remember him firmly stating that he regarded the abortion debate in the US to be about the control of women's sexuality and reproduction.

I remember he spent over six hours in one-on-one care with my wife when there was concern she had an infection. We're talking about a physician here. Six hours.

He told the story of his previous shooting, where a woman shot him twice in both arms as he drove out of his clinic. At first he wanted to run her down with his Jeep, but then he thought "she shot you already George, she'll do it again!"

I remember being puzzled about a T-shirt he was wearing, which said "Happy Birthday Jennifer from team Tiller!" or something similar. Turns out it comemmorated the birthday of a fifteen year old girl who was raped, became pregnant, and came to Tiller for an abortion. As luck would have it, she was in the clinic the same week as her birthday. So the clinic threw her a party.

The walls of the clinic reception and waiting room are literally covered with letters from patients thanking him. Some were heartbreaking - obviously young and/or poorly educated people thanking Dr. Tiller for being there when they had no other options, explaining their family, church etc. had abandoned them.

I remember my wife, foggy with sedation after the final procedure, being helped from the exam table. He had her sit up and put her arms around his neck, and then he lifted her into a wheelchair. "You give good hugs" she whispered. He paused just for a moment. "You're just fine," he told her.

--------

My brother and his wife received a diagnosis at the beginning of the second trimester's ultrasound that their child had anencephaly - a condition where the fetus' skull does not completely close and the brain forms partially outside the skull. It is a neural tube defect, similar to spina bifida, but it happens higher up on the body. They were told the child would die before, or shortly after, birth. There was no doubt about the diagnosis. My brother and his wife were encouraged by their doctor to go to Kansas for an abortion, the closest place where they could obtain one in the second trimester.

It was an agonizing decision, but they chose not to have the abortion for religious reasons. The pregnancy went to term and the baby lived for several weeks. She was surrounded by love for the brief time she was here.

I wish I could say unequivocally that they made the right decision, but the long-term effects on my sister-in-law's mental well-being have been serious. She is very much changed from the person that she was before.

Imagine what it is like to walk around in your third trimester, obviously pregnant, while well-meaning people ask you about this baby that you don't expect to be taking home from the hospital. Innocuous comments become incredibly hurtful in this context. Then imagine the baby survives and days later you take home this child who will die. In case you might relax and pretend for a little while that everything is okay, a hospice nurse comes to your house every couple of days and reminds you the signs and symptoms of death. Every time you open the refrigerator you see the narcotics you've been given to ease the baby's suffering once things get really bad.

Eventually, this baby dies a grueling death in your arms and you go home to an empty house. You want another baby, but are paralyzed by the thought of having another child with the same condition, yet you desperately want a child that is related to the child you lost. You find yourself unable to conceive and resentful of those who have many healthy children so easily. The infertility takes its toll on your marriage. The suffering and injustice takes its toll on your faith.

I often wonder what would have happened if they had the abortion. I'm not sure my sister-in-law could have lived with that decision, but at least she was given the gift of making a deliberate choice and this did make a difference in how my brother and his wife perceived their circumstances. How do people respond when they feel trapped?

I agree with those who believe abortion is a selfish choice, but in some cases the cost to the self is too high and the benefit to the other is too hard to determine. I'm afraid that the murder of Dr. Tiller will hasten the decline in doctors willing to do this work and deny desperate people of options.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Well I can't say more than what's been said by Don Corleone.

Oh come on - this Doctor was performing a completely legal operation and was killed for it.

Legality has nothing to do with morality. It was once legal to own slaves and treat them horribly. Would calling a brutal slaveowner, who was killed by a radical abolitionist, a 'monster' offend you?

Now the murder was, of course, wrong, and goes against the principles of those who are pro-life.

CR

[Samurai Waki]

Meh, iv heard from ex-brainwashed women that used to be part of the pro-life movement the exact opposite, one a certain "Sciwoman" over at Richardawkins.net and another a neighbor . They can tell some heavy stories that went on when they were screaming and harassing women going to the abortion clinics. I got no doubt in my mind that "mainstream" pro-lifers are praising this terrorist behind closed doors.

Iv heard from other forums that the doctor that got assassinated only performed on 3rd trimester babies when it was apparent they would have severe birth defects, anyone else have information on this?

I understand that some of the extreme elements are certainly clapping their hands. However, Leadership had better distance themselves from the extremists, make their organizations far more transparent, and had better do it quickly. In the end, little cases like these, actually make Pro Choice stronger. Which is fine.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The man was sick. Unfortunately he lived to destroy life. What do you do with monsters like that when the state refuses to lock them up?

I'll pray for him, but is name will be at the end of the list of the 60,000 infants he has killed, so it may take a while.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This man did not deserve to die, no one does. To suggest otherwise is to miss the point of Christianity as a religion. This man was not a murderer, he was a doctor; he no doubt thought he was helping people by offering this service, aliviating suffering and making lives better. The fact that he was killing upborn children is itself hgorrific, but it says more about American society than this one man.

I see no evidence he was anything other than normal and well adjusted, no doubt he also had a support staff and family and friends who thought his job was acceptable, I doubt he enjoyed parts of it very much. The fact that he felt this particular evil was necessary is truly dreadful, but those condemning him here should examine the world around them and ask how he was brought to this state.

As to those Christians condemning him here, I say two things: "Love the sinner, hate the sin" and remember that Jesus went to the prostitutes, thieves and tax collectors, I'm sure he had dinner with a Greek doctor who performed abortions as well.

This man is dead, he and his family deserve compassion, sympathy, protection, forgiveness and love; not hate and recrimination.

[Mooks]

Well I can't say more than what's been said by Don Corleone.



Legality has nothing to do with morality. It was once legal to own slaves and treat them horribly. Would calling a brutal slaveowner, who was killed by a radical abolitionist, a 'monster' offend you?

Now the murder was, of course, wrong, and goes against the principles of those who are pro-life.

CR

The women getting the late term abortions didnt do it for the lulz. It was either that or bringing up a invalid,something most people dont have the mindset/financial situation to do.

Alright, so amount of people who know nothing about the pro-life movement in this thread tallies at: 1. I'll keep a running total, don't worry.

Was raised in a fundamentalist christrian environment. Know more about it then I really care too.