TWC or the Org?

[GeneralHankerchief]

This thread needs to die a quick death.

[Alexandros_III]

since he is now on m ignore list, im done talking to him and we can move on. sorry about that :)

i dont think it s apersonal attack though......more like a defense and general attack on TWC moderators.

You sir, and Im sorry but I must say it, insult the forum, and so then insult TW, and so then you insult me. And this after I was almost convinced the .org was worth restarting in. But Bwian has convinced me that it is at least worth having this acount, if at least for the variety.

I just wish that I had bothered to make it before March 3. ETW is an insult all the worse that it was released on my birthday.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I think this thread have lost it's point.

Currently, one boy is ranting and blaming TWC moderators and that's it. Last time I checked the title of this thread it wasn't "One boys Crusade against TWC moderators"!

I have a suggestion: if you want to stay here(Org) then please grow up or otherwise you will end up banned from this site too.

EDIT: Gah, GH read my thoughts! :D

[Makanyane]

I just wish that I had bothered to make it before March 3. ETW is an insult all the worse that it was released on my birthday.

Don't take it personally :P

Also don't pay too much attention to people here moaning about TWC moderators - I've seen as many on TWC moaning about Org moderators, depending on which site they got nabbed on first..... the only difference here being that they don't have a tribunal to go moan in first - (have to confess I prefer it our way)

[Prussian to the Iron]

If you hate the other site that much, why don't you stop creating alts with which to circumvent your suspension? You know how it works, every alt you use during your suspension automatically adds another month. Yet you keep creating them, the latest being today, after you said "i am not going back to that $***-hole".

read the post again; it says except to annoy the moderators.


why would i continue to create alts? to keep the mods annoyed and busy. i dont give a damn about john-117 there, and honestly it is fun to attack the mods there.

if any of you have read my other posts. you'd know i am not as bad as TWC modenazis portray me as. lock thread so we dont have to continue this.

[Beefy187]

read the post again; it says except to annoy the moderators.


why would i continue to create alts? to keep the mods annoyed and busy. i dont give a damn about john-117 there, and honestly it is fun to attack the mods there.

if any of you have read my other posts. you'd know i am not as bad as TWC modenazis portray me as. lock thread so we dont have to continue this.

If you did read the Org rule, I'm pretty sure you broke a couple of it in this thread. I don't think the TWC mods mistreated you. But you broke the TWC rules and they simply did their job.

[Alexandros_III]

This is not what I expected when I made this thread. This fool who posted above me has prooved doubtless that the .org has as many ignorent children (not to be confused with informed children) as the TWC. I guess Ill just hang around both places. Too bad I know very little about this place.

And to the person above me, TWC mods are the same as any respectable forums. I really dont see what your problem is. THe only scrap I ever got in with them was when I wrote a 7 line rant about ETW and posted it in the forum. For it I got banned 3 days from that subsection. I dont see how thats bad or different from what would happen here.

[Alexandros_III]

Sorry, I dont know how to edit posts, there isnt a button there.

Just to clear up, when I said the one above me, I was refering to John and not Beefy.

[Owen Glyndwr]

Sorry, I dont know how to edit posts, there isnt a button there.

Just to clear up, when I said the one above me, I was refering to John and not Beefy.

No problem, and I encourage you, Alexandros, to not judge the entire forum based on the rantings of one member. This really is a great and (mostly) very mature site. I actually don't see a whole lot of arguments such as this one break out, and usually when they do the thread is ended relatively quickly. Furthermore just look around the site for yourself. We aren't a very "clique-y" forum, so feel free to lurk around and post your own insights wherever your interest is struck, you'll be amazed by how many awesome people and discussions you can find by just aimlessly wandering.

As to not being able to edit, that is because you are a junior member (see the title under your name?) In the .Org, when someone first registers, they are on junior member status, which restricts their access to various things (such as editing posts). Don't get discouraged though, just keep posting on the site, and you'll be a full member eventually.

As for everyone else, I suppose if someone really bothers you, it is best not to complain about him/her, as it only makes the discussion worse, and generally brings forth flames from the smoke, so to speak. For the sake of perhaps another delightful, prospective member to the .Org, try to keep the thread just a little less, flamey, I guess? (That means you too, John-117)

[Prussian to the Iron]

No problem, and I encourage you, Alexandros, to not judge the entire forum based on the rantings of one member. This really is a great and (mostly) very mature site. I actually don't see a whole lot of arguments such as this one break out, and usually when they do the thread is ended relatively quickly. Furthermore just look around the site for yourself. We aren't a very "clique-y" forum, so feel free to lurk around and post your own insights wherever your interest is struck, you'll be amazed by how many awesome people and discussions you can find by just aimlessly wandering.

As to not being able to edit, that is because you are a junior member (see the title under your name?) In the .Org, when someone first registers, they are on junior member status, which restricts their access to various things (such as editing posts). Don't get discouraged though, just keep posting on the site, and you'll be a full member eventually.

As for everyone else, I suppose if someone really bothers you, it is best not to complain about him/her, as it only makes the discussion worse, and generally brings forth flames from the smoke, so to speak. For the sake of perhaps another delightful, prospective member to the .Org, try to keep the thread just a little less, flamey, I guess? (That means you too, John-117)

this is a very sensible and intelligent post. I agree 100% and think we can end this discussion and move on.

the only note I have is: do not judge people based on actions in a different website, at a different time period, during a period someone forgot to take their meds. judge based on the majority of their posts which are well-written and meaningful as most of yours are.

[Pannonian]

this is a very sensible and intelligent post. I agree 100% and think we can end this discussion and move on.

the only note I have is: do not judge people based on actions in a different website, at a different time period, during a period someone forgot to take their meds. judge based on the majority of their posts which are well-written and meaningful as most of yours are.

Once you put your misbehaviour to the past, you can move on. So quit making alts and evading your suspension, something you've said you're doing simply to irritate the moderators. You've a forum here while you're suspended at TWC, so sit out your suspension, however long it currently is, rather than continuing to break rules for the heck of it.

[Prussian to the Iron]

i will not go back to TWC. thats that.end of discussion, it is over.

[Andres]

Can we get back to topic, please?

The Org is not the "Tribunal for suspended TWC members."

Thank you for your consideration.

[Csargo]

During the down-time the Org had a couple days ago, I spent some time at the TWC. Especially in the Ethos, Mores, et Monastica forum. I spent a while reading some posts on philosophy and really enjoyed them. I've been visiting the site every day or two now, but have yet to venture out of that particular forum. Though I can't vote in polls which is kind of annoying.

[Pannonian]

I'll just note an observation of mine. There is a tendency for some people who are/have been members of both sites to behave relatively soundly at the Org, but who will occasionally raise hell at TWC. Not everyone does this, just a minority, but some people will fit in as normal members while at the Org, while making the occasional foray into TWC to troll, flame, post porn, and whatever else they know the moderators dislike, stuff they scrupulously stay clear of here. These people usually registered at TWC first, before having a run-in with the moderators, resulting in a suspension or ban, then coming here and reinventing themselves as normal Orgahs, but still returning to TWC to make hell.

My question is, if these people have shown they can behave normally here, why do they feel the need to behave completely differently at TWC? Is it because the Tribunal, the political history, etc. of TWC gives them a platform for such antics? Is it because the Org generally has a more mature audience that looks down on such stuff, whereas TWC has a younger membership that views such stuff as cool? Is it the membership or the institutions that cause this, and what can be done to improve things?

[Furunculus]

i've been here even longer than my current account suggests.

i'd did have a TWC account but never really used it.

[TinCow]

My question is, if these people have shown they can behave normally here, why do they feel the need to behave completely differently at TWC? Is it because the Tribunal, the political history, etc. of TWC gives them a platform for such antics? Is it because the Org generally has a more mature audience that looks down on such stuff, whereas TWC has a younger membership that views such stuff as cool? Is it the membership or the institutions that cause this, and what can be done to improve things?

Honestly, I think it's just the nature of the internet. I've frequented many gaming forums over the years and even ran one myself for a while. The larger and more popular the site, the greater attention it gets from 'casual' posters. These people aren't usually interested in joining a community, they're just around to get information or vent about the game they're currently playing. Since these people have no significant intentions of hanging around for multiple years, they feel relatively little need to behave in a proper and respectable manner. Thus, the larger and more successful the forum, the more trolls you get.

This in turn impacts the feel of the forums, making them less personal and more chaotic. When people are in the midst of an environment like that, they feel less constrained to act properly. Thus, people who behave properly on a smaller site will act up on a larger site simply because the environment makes their behavior there seem less improper. I'm generally a pretty well-behaved guy, but if I were personally inclined to go out and troll, I wouldn't think twice about doing it on a dev-hosted game forum or a mass-forum site like those hosted by Gamespy or Gamebanshee.

As I see it, this is simply a price that must be paid for success on the internet. When the Org was the top TW fan site, all those people came here and we had problems. Currently TWC is the top TW fan site and thus it gets nearly all of the short-term trolls, which impacts the overall feel.

[Pannonian]

Honestly, I think it's just the nature of the internet. I've frequented many gaming forums over the years and even ran one myself for a while. The larger and more popular the site, the greater attention it gets from 'casual' posters. These people aren't usually interested in joining a community, they're just around to get information or vent about the game they're currently playing. Since these people have no significant intentions of hanging around for multiple years, they feel relatively little need to behave in a proper and respectable manner. Thus, the larger and more successful the forum, the more trolls you get.

This in turn impacts the feel of the forums, making them less personal and more chaotic. When people are in the midst of an environment like that, they feel less constrained to act properly. Thus, people who behave properly on a smaller site will act up on a larger site simply because the environment makes their behavior there seem less improper. I'm generally a pretty well-behaved guy, but if I were personally inclined to go out and troll, I wouldn't think twice about doing it on a dev-hosted game forum or a mass-forum site like those hosted by Gamespy or Gamebanshee.

As I see it, this is simply a price that must be paid for success on the internet. When the Org was the top TW fan site, all those people came here and we had problems. Currently TWC is the top TW fan site and thus it gets nearly all of the short-term trolls, which impacts the overall feel.

The thing is, they're not casual trolls. They're people who've settled to some extent in TWC, with significant postcounts (1000+), who have come into conflict with the moderators there, then relocated to here while they were suspended or banned, then made it their TWC raison d'etre to cause trouble there. One would have thought, if they disliked that site that much, they would just stop visiting it altogether, but that isn't so. Instead, they go to some lengths to raise hell there, doing stuff they know they'll get punished for, then complaining about the moderating, while maintaining a (relatively) civil persona over here at the Org. It can't be the moderating that is so much more severe, because they do stuff at TWC that would swiftly result in a permaban here if done here, or at least a self-titled thread in the Watchtower by Tosa.

[caravel]

i will not go back to TWC. thats that.end of discussion, it is over.

Well no you won't... because apparently they banned you.

[TinCow]

The thing is, they're not casual trolls. They're people who've settled to some extent in TWC, with significant postcounts (1000+), who have come into conflict with the moderators there, then relocated to here while they were suspended or banned, then made it their TWC raison d'etre to cause trouble there. One would have thought, if they disliked that site that much, they would just stop visiting it altogether, but that isn't so. Instead, they go to some lengths to raise hell there, doing stuff they know they'll get punished for, then complaining about the moderating, while maintaining a (relatively) civil persona over here at the Org. It can't be the moderating that is so much more severe, because they do stuff at TWC that would swiftly result in a permaban here if done here, or at least a self-titled thread in the Watchtower by Tosa.

I've seen stuff like that happen before on other sites. As I see it, it doesn't really have anything to do with TWC in specific. People who do that tend to internalize a conflict with a moderator or website and personalize it to a degree that becomes slightly obsessive. They often gain a persecution complex or otherwise see themselves as wronged or singled out in some manner. This then translates over to intentional troublemaking to strike back at the perceived instigators of their woes.

Their failure to translate that troublemaking to other sites is not so much a comment on the other sites as it is a comment on their obsession with the conflict with the original site. They may not be inherently 'bad' members, but rather become so with reference to a specific place due to their history with that place. This is partly why the most troublesome trolls are almost always people who were regular members for a long time first. Those who get in trouble soon after joining a forum don't have much invested in it and quickly get bored with trolling. Those who have a mental attachment to a forum are more likely to become obsessed with causing problems as retaliation for wrongs they believe were perpetrated on themselves.

This is not unique to TWC. The Org has plenty of people who enjoy causing problems for us and who regularly return with alt accounts to have another go. TWC probably has a lot more simply because their active member base is so much larger than ours.

[Pannonian]

I've seen stuff like that happen before on other sites. As I see it, it doesn't really have anything to do with TWC in specific. People who do that tend to internalize a conflict with a moderator or website and personalize it to a degree that becomes slightly obsessive. They often gain a persecution complex or otherwise see themselves as wronged or singled out in some manner. This then translates over to intentional troublemaking to strike back at the perceived instigators of their woes.

Their failure to translate that troublemaking to other sites is not so much a comment on the other sites as it is a comment on their obsession with the conflict with the original site. They may not be inherently 'bad' members, but rather become so with reference to a specific place due to their history with that place. This is partly why the most troublesome trolls are almost always people who were regular members for a long time first. Those who get in trouble soon after joining a forum don't have much invested in it and quickly get bored with trolling. Those who have a mental attachment to a forum are more likely to become obsessed with causing problems as retaliation for wrongs they believe were perpetrated on themselves.

This is not unique to TWC. The Org has plenty of people who enjoy causing problems for us and who regularly return with alt accounts to have another go. TWC probably has a lot more simply because their active member base is so much larger than ours.

Fair enough. I'd been wondering why it was that the TWC and Org communities were so different, and how things could be improved. One idea, particularly advanced by Orgahs who've drifted over to TWC, is that the semi-republican structures encourage the powerplays that these trolls indulge in. Another idea is that the membership here is generally older, and certainly liberally dotted with older posters, than the generally younger TWC membership. Then there's the idea you've suggested, which is that the TWC membership is just much bigger, and with a normal distribution, will naturally result in more outliers. From what I've seen, it's probably a mixture of all of these, plus other causes which I haven't found a description for yet.

Oh well, I just wish they'd stop returning to a place they seem to dislike, yet have a fixation on.

[Dodge_272]

I like both.

TWC is more active however the average IQ drops by about 50% in comparison to this site.

[Prussian to the Iron]

wow......this somehow went from a "which do you prefer" thread, to a "single mans crusade against TWC" thread, to a "psychology of people who dislike and want to troll TWC" thread. kinda funny how this stuff works eh?

Well no you won't... because apparently they banned you.

for some reason i find this extremely funny.............




i would like to take part in this conversation, being myself a subject of it.

Is it because the Org generally has a more mature audience that looks down on such stuff, whereas TWC has a younger membership that views such stuff as cool?

this seems pretty logical; I usually hang around very intelligent and nice friends (one of them is only 16 and has a scholarship to westpointe!!!) and behave relatively well with them, whereas when i am around my less intelligent and immature friends, i find that i am more accepted when i behave less like my normal self.

Is it because the Tribunal, the political history, etc. of TWC gives them a platform for such antics?

yes. you understand us so well.

Is it the membership or the institutions that cause this, and what can be done to improve things?

as in.......?

you mean other members and the admins/moderators? i don't know what you mean by institution so i'll go with my translation:

other members are usually not that bad, a few outliers but not many.

moderators on the other hand, well, yeah. they are a big problem. i also noticed that most of the older/more popular moderators there (Pontifex, Foot, etc.) are much more fair; not always, but definitely more.

what can be done to fix it? clean out all moderators and simply let the administrator take care of all reports. then, after a month or 2, they could start re-choosing new moderators based on posting manners and etiquette. after a 1 month trial period, the mods would be allowed full priveleges.

also: if there is an appeal in the tribunal, a poll should be included and everyone should be allowed to post in it. then, depending on the poll results, the appeal is either refused or granted.

[Kamos]

During the down-time the Org had a couple days ago, I spent some time at the TWC. Especially in the Ethos, Mores, et Monastica forum. I spent a while reading some posts on philosophy and really enjoyed them. I've been visiting the site every day or two now, but have yet to venture out of that particular forum. Though I can't vote in polls which is kind of annoying.

It's a fairly good part of the forum, people tend to just repeat themselves and never budge but overall it's nice.

[Prussian to the Iron]

should i remove kamos from my ignore list?

[Aemilius Paulus]

should i remove kamos from my ignore list?

I do believe that is your decision. In any case, please do not lock this thread by going off topic.

[Alexandros_III]

I think you should leave this thread alone and not come back John, but if you really must stay then at least use a little more grammar.

As to this discussion, I have an acount on TWC that had been there for a while, and for a long time I met mostly mature members, those that knew what they were saying and wanted to be there. The site was, or so I remember, as good as I could have wanted it. But it changed, even through the relatively short time I was there I could see it. As ETW aproached its release date it, and redoubled after it, the site was flooded with new members, some who have proven themselves worthy of being part of the damaged community, but many, many more who acted immaturely and childish. It shocked me how many people who have never even heared of TW before, many who in fact loved ETW but looked publicly down on the rest of the series. I have seen my favorite site dieing before my eyes since it started, and even through the better forums that remain, such as Ethos, Mores, et Monastica and Hegemonia, it hurt.

In this site I have seen what I saw in the older TWC, but I know nothing about it. I see the maturity and thought in the posts, and even with the ocasional troller and flamer ir is better in some ways than TWC. The problem is that TWC has been home, has everything I've done and is bigger; my favorite mods are there, and save EB I cant find them here. I made this thread as a hope that I could solve this problem. But so far I am still not certain which is truly better.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

In the end there will always be a little piece of the first TW forum you visited. You will always remember the TWC as a golden age, just like others will think of the Org the same way, you can't change that. but if you are willing to give it a shot, the org is a wonderful place. But then I am one of those people who started in the Org, so I am biased. I say give it a shot here.

[MerlinusCDXX]

As for me, I use both sites. I was an .orgah first, so I know the people here a bit better. I generally have no problems over there though, I guess that comes from not acting like a durn fool and trying to annoy everyone I come into contact with...

Each site has featured content that I use it for. The EB main fora are here, plus a very interesting RPG I'm playing, so those (and the original reason I joined, MTW, though my new system won't run it) are my main reasons for using this site. The other/ off topic discussions are just bonus, though one can find that at TWC as well. TWC I mainly use to keep abreast of mods that aren't featured here.

[Pannonian]

In the end there will always be a little piece of the first TW forum you visited. You will always remember the TWC as a golden age, just like others will think of the Otg the same way, you can't change that. but if you are willing to give it a shot, the org is a wonderful place. But then I am one of those people who started in the Org, so I am biased. I say give it a shot here.

The first internet forums I went to were usenet newsgroups, where there were posters who could remember as far back as the 1940s, so my first exposure was to people who generally behaved maturely, whose experience and knowledge I respectedly greatly, among whom I initially lurked, but with whom I eventually discussed topics of mutual interest. My first regular web forum was the Org, and while it was a tad different from usenet (it had moderators, for a start), my forums of choice, the Monastery and Backroom, were sufficiently similar in feel to my old newsgroups for me to feel at ease.