TWC or the Org?

[GeneralHankerchief]

This thread needs to die a quick death.

[Andres]

Can we get back to topic, please?

The Org is not the "Tribunal for suspended TWC members."

Thank you for your consideration.

[Csargo]

During the down-time the Org had a couple days ago, I spent some time at the TWC. Especially in the Ethos, Mores, et Monastica forum. I spent a while reading some posts on philosophy and really enjoyed them. I've been visiting the site every day or two now, but have yet to venture out of that particular forum. Though I can't vote in polls which is kind of annoying.

[Kamos]

During the down-time the Org had a couple days ago, I spent some time at the TWC. Especially in the Ethos, Mores, et Monastica forum. I spent a while reading some posts on philosophy and really enjoyed them. I've been visiting the site every day or two now, but have yet to venture out of that particular forum. Though I can't vote in polls which is kind of annoying.

It's a fairly good part of the forum, people tend to just repeat themselves and never budge but overall it's nice.

[TB666]

Though I can't vote in polls which is kind of annoying.

You have to have 50 posts in order to vote in polls.
Can seem a bit harsh but it was done for a very good reason.
Think it was during the buildup for M2TW there was this poll on which faction should be added in.
Anyway hordes of eastern europeans(I will not name the country but they were all from the same area) signed on just to vote in this thread.
Naturally this distrupted the whole point of the poll since these people didn't give a damn about TW, they just did it for nationalist reason.
So the 50 post rule got added.

[Alexandros_III]

You have to have 50 posts in order to vote in polls.
Can seem a bit harsh but it was done for a very good reason.
Think it was during the buildup for M2TW there was this poll on which faction should be added in.
Anyway hordes of eastern europeans(I will not name the country but they were all from the same area) signed on just to vote in this thread.
Naturally this distrupted the whole point of the poll since these people didn't give a damn about TW, they just did it for nationalist reason.
So the 50 post rule got added.

And its everywhere now.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I don't log in to either forums that much anymore but I have to say as a modder I enjoy searching the modding forums of TWC more. Sadly the majority of the modding community has vanished over here

[Aemilius Paulus]

Anyway hordes of eastern europeans(I will not name the country but they were all from the same area) signed on just to vote in this thread.

What country? What country? What country? What country? What country? What country? What country? What country?

Was it Russia *grin*? Or Poland?

[A Very Super Market]

Those are obvious factions that would definitely be put into a game. It was probably somewhere more obscure.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Those are obvious factions that would definitely be put into a game. It was probably somewhere more obscure.

Poland could be insignificant enough in the TW sense. It could have been Bulgaria or Luthania as well. Or even Ukraine. I have no idea how they would represent it in the Late and High Medieval periods though.

[Prussian to the Iron]

latvia?

[Owen Glyndwr]

Anyway hordes of eastern europeans(I will not name the country but they were all from the same area) signed on just to vote in this thread.
Naturally this distrupted the whole point of the poll since these people didn't give a damn about TW, they just did it for nationalist reason.
So the 50 post rule got added.

Lol, pwnage AP.

[Pannonian]

I'll just note an observation of mine. There is a tendency for some people who are/have been members of both sites to behave relatively soundly at the Org, but who will occasionally raise hell at TWC. Not everyone does this, just a minority, but some people will fit in as normal members while at the Org, while making the occasional foray into TWC to troll, flame, post porn, and whatever else they know the moderators dislike, stuff they scrupulously stay clear of here. These people usually registered at TWC first, before having a run-in with the moderators, resulting in a suspension or ban, then coming here and reinventing themselves as normal Orgahs, but still returning to TWC to make hell.

My question is, if these people have shown they can behave normally here, why do they feel the need to behave completely differently at TWC? Is it because the Tribunal, the political history, etc. of TWC gives them a platform for such antics? Is it because the Org generally has a more mature audience that looks down on such stuff, whereas TWC has a younger membership that views such stuff as cool? Is it the membership or the institutions that cause this, and what can be done to improve things?

[TinCow]

My question is, if these people have shown they can behave normally here, why do they feel the need to behave completely differently at TWC? Is it because the Tribunal, the political history, etc. of TWC gives them a platform for such antics? Is it because the Org generally has a more mature audience that looks down on such stuff, whereas TWC has a younger membership that views such stuff as cool? Is it the membership or the institutions that cause this, and what can be done to improve things?

Honestly, I think it's just the nature of the internet. I've frequented many gaming forums over the years and even ran one myself for a while. The larger and more popular the site, the greater attention it gets from 'casual' posters. These people aren't usually interested in joining a community, they're just around to get information or vent about the game they're currently playing. Since these people have no significant intentions of hanging around for multiple years, they feel relatively little need to behave in a proper and respectable manner. Thus, the larger and more successful the forum, the more trolls you get.

This in turn impacts the feel of the forums, making them less personal and more chaotic. When people are in the midst of an environment like that, they feel less constrained to act properly. Thus, people who behave properly on a smaller site will act up on a larger site simply because the environment makes their behavior there seem less improper. I'm generally a pretty well-behaved guy, but if I were personally inclined to go out and troll, I wouldn't think twice about doing it on a dev-hosted game forum or a mass-forum site like those hosted by Gamespy or Gamebanshee.

As I see it, this is simply a price that must be paid for success on the internet. When the Org was the top TW fan site, all those people came here and we had problems. Currently TWC is the top TW fan site and thus it gets nearly all of the short-term trolls, which impacts the overall feel.

[Pannonian]

Honestly, I think it's just the nature of the internet. I've frequented many gaming forums over the years and even ran one myself for a while. The larger and more popular the site, the greater attention it gets from 'casual' posters. These people aren't usually interested in joining a community, they're just around to get information or vent about the game they're currently playing. Since these people have no significant intentions of hanging around for multiple years, they feel relatively little need to behave in a proper and respectable manner. Thus, the larger and more successful the forum, the more trolls you get.

This in turn impacts the feel of the forums, making them less personal and more chaotic. When people are in the midst of an environment like that, they feel less constrained to act properly. Thus, people who behave properly on a smaller site will act up on a larger site simply because the environment makes their behavior there seem less improper. I'm generally a pretty well-behaved guy, but if I were personally inclined to go out and troll, I wouldn't think twice about doing it on a dev-hosted game forum or a mass-forum site like those hosted by Gamespy or Gamebanshee.

As I see it, this is simply a price that must be paid for success on the internet. When the Org was the top TW fan site, all those people came here and we had problems. Currently TWC is the top TW fan site and thus it gets nearly all of the short-term trolls, which impacts the overall feel.

The thing is, they're not casual trolls. They're people who've settled to some extent in TWC, with significant postcounts (1000+), who have come into conflict with the moderators there, then relocated to here while they were suspended or banned, then made it their TWC raison d'etre to cause trouble there. One would have thought, if they disliked that site that much, they would just stop visiting it altogether, but that isn't so. Instead, they go to some lengths to raise hell there, doing stuff they know they'll get punished for, then complaining about the moderating, while maintaining a (relatively) civil persona over here at the Org. It can't be the moderating that is so much more severe, because they do stuff at TWC that would swiftly result in a permaban here if done here, or at least a self-titled thread in the Watchtower by Tosa.

[TinCow]

The thing is, they're not casual trolls. They're people who've settled to some extent in TWC, with significant postcounts (1000+), who have come into conflict with the moderators there, then relocated to here while they were suspended or banned, then made it their TWC raison d'etre to cause trouble there. One would have thought, if they disliked that site that much, they would just stop visiting it altogether, but that isn't so. Instead, they go to some lengths to raise hell there, doing stuff they know they'll get punished for, then complaining about the moderating, while maintaining a (relatively) civil persona over here at the Org. It can't be the moderating that is so much more severe, because they do stuff at TWC that would swiftly result in a permaban here if done here, or at least a self-titled thread in the Watchtower by Tosa.

I've seen stuff like that happen before on other sites. As I see it, it doesn't really have anything to do with TWC in specific. People who do that tend to internalize a conflict with a moderator or website and personalize it to a degree that becomes slightly obsessive. They often gain a persecution complex or otherwise see themselves as wronged or singled out in some manner. This then translates over to intentional troublemaking to strike back at the perceived instigators of their woes.

Their failure to translate that troublemaking to other sites is not so much a comment on the other sites as it is a comment on their obsession with the conflict with the original site. They may not be inherently 'bad' members, but rather become so with reference to a specific place due to their history with that place. This is partly why the most troublesome trolls are almost always people who were regular members for a long time first. Those who get in trouble soon after joining a forum don't have much invested in it and quickly get bored with trolling. Those who have a mental attachment to a forum are more likely to become obsessed with causing problems as retaliation for wrongs they believe were perpetrated on themselves.

This is not unique to TWC. The Org has plenty of people who enjoy causing problems for us and who regularly return with alt accounts to have another go. TWC probably has a lot more simply because their active member base is so much larger than ours.

[Pannonian]

I've seen stuff like that happen before on other sites. As I see it, it doesn't really have anything to do with TWC in specific. People who do that tend to internalize a conflict with a moderator or website and personalize it to a degree that becomes slightly obsessive. They often gain a persecution complex or otherwise see themselves as wronged or singled out in some manner. This then translates over to intentional troublemaking to strike back at the perceived instigators of their woes.

Their failure to translate that troublemaking to other sites is not so much a comment on the other sites as it is a comment on their obsession with the conflict with the original site. They may not be inherently 'bad' members, but rather become so with reference to a specific place due to their history with that place. This is partly why the most troublesome trolls are almost always people who were regular members for a long time first. Those who get in trouble soon after joining a forum don't have much invested in it and quickly get bored with trolling. Those who have a mental attachment to a forum are more likely to become obsessed with causing problems as retaliation for wrongs they believe were perpetrated on themselves.

This is not unique to TWC. The Org has plenty of people who enjoy causing problems for us and who regularly return with alt accounts to have another go. TWC probably has a lot more simply because their active member base is so much larger than ours.

Fair enough. I'd been wondering why it was that the TWC and Org communities were so different, and how things could be improved. One idea, particularly advanced by Orgahs who've drifted over to TWC, is that the semi-republican structures encourage the powerplays that these trolls indulge in. Another idea is that the membership here is generally older, and certainly liberally dotted with older posters, than the generally younger TWC membership. Then there's the idea you've suggested, which is that the TWC membership is just much bigger, and with a normal distribution, will naturally result in more outliers. From what I've seen, it's probably a mixture of all of these, plus other causes which I haven't found a description for yet.

Oh well, I just wish they'd stop returning to a place they seem to dislike, yet have a fixation on.