Maccabean Revolt... A SUBMOD for EB II

[Cute Wolf]

Well, according to some people who want a jewish faction in EB II, let's made a submod about them... (but we prepare the historical resource now)... and not making a mess with the primary EB II

This submod will start in 166 BCE... the map is modified a bit... perhaps reducing some Iberians and Celtic settlements, kick out Epeiros (soory for that... I'm not against any Epeirotai fans, but this faction is the most unrelated in this mod... Pyrrhos dies in 272 BC anyways), making British Islands just 3 province (yes, give them all for Casse ).... and then add some territory in the levantine area... (means more city in Israel)

After Mattathias' death about one year later in 166 BCE, his son Judah Maccabee led an army of Jewish dissidents to victory over the Seleucid dynasty in guerrilla warfare

The Maccabeans will start as horde in somewhat near Jerusalem...
Their Family tree is consisting Mattatias (but he's allready dead) as former faction leader...

Their unit is:
---------------------------------------
Judas Maccabeus, (Has the best Command skills) --> Near Jerusalem
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Judean Zealots x1
Iudaioi Taxeis x5
Iudaioi Sphendonitai x1
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai x2
Horde Slingers x5 (horde unit for Judeans, 120 men, but really poor slingers)
Horde Spearmen x5 (horde unit for Judeans, 120 men, but worse than pantodapoi)

Jonathan Maccabeus, faction leader (the first high priest after their father) ; Hiding in the forest
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Pantodapoi Phalangitai x5 (They need some phalanx afterall)
Iudaioi Taxeis x2
Iudaioi Sphendonitai x2
Horde Slingers x5
Horde Spearmen x5

Simon Maccabeus, faction heir ; Near Gaza
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Toxotai Syriakoi x2
Iudaioi Sphendonitai x2
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai x3
Asabaran-i Madean x 2
Horde Slingers x6
Horde Spearmen x4

Eliezer Maccabeus (start near Egypt - so he start with 4 machimoi)
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Machimoi x4
Iudaioi Sphendonitai x2
Horde Slingers x3
Horde Spearmen x2

Jhon Gadii (somewhere arround)
Judean Zealot Bodyguards x1
Horde Slingers x4
Horde Spearmen x5

----------------------------------

An Idea for Zealots ---> Perhaps we could use this model, and change the Skin...


Use that Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi model, but add 2 Hp for them, and 13 sword attack like Gaesatae.....

----------------------------------
Need some feedback about suggested Seleukid and Ptolemaic starts, and perhaps another faction's historical condition in 166 BC

Note: Seleukid garrison should be strong enough to give the Player painful start... but their city order is terribly low....

And script should force Roman AI to expand exsplosively....

Thanks

[Cute Wolf]

Hmm... I'll think I will try to mod them first in EB 1.... just wait for your suggestion in starting point...

[Moros]

Well if you make a submod on the maccabean revolt. Wouldn't it be nicer to not only include the Maccabeans but also another faction from the regio which played a major part, first as an ally yet later as rival? Namely the nabataeans?

Also I wonder what zealot bodyguards are? You know it wasn't untill Herod IIRC that there were such things as elite infantry? So a reform should be used. Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi" meaning "fighters who can best 100 enemies each" with bronze coated thyreos could be an elite unit. I'd make them very thorakitai like, scale armour, thyreos and hellenistic helmet. Also armoured horse archers are an option for after the reforms.
The early army should indeed be mostly light skirmishers and slingers. Arab mercenaries especially nabataean should be added (mostly light infantry, light horse archers and camel archers) as they formed a large part of the army if we should believe Josephus. Not sure how the jews that have done hellenisitc military service should be represented though.

also check out these pictures made from the Spangenhelm magazine (from an EB member, if you like warfare history you should buy it!):
http://www.stephane-lagrange.com/ind...d=35&Itemid=70

Just to help you guys started. Also I'm not that sure about phalangitai, at all.

Edit: Also 2 HP for zealots? That's ridiculous, you'll find many more units in EB who were fanatic, taken suicide oaths,.... And all of them don't get the extra HP. Some extra morale seems to be in order, but that's it.

[abou]

You have a lot of research to do and there are a couple of books out there which you can use. Namely the ones published by Bar-Kockva. Also, as far as I can tell, the Maccabaeans used cavalry only once and it didn't turn out too well. You also need to examine the fact that this is a revolt manned by Jews and pretty much Jews alone. Ergo, chances are you will have no access to regionals and the phasing-out of phalanx warfare by this time means the Jews would likely not field phalangites.

You will also need to examine what the meaning of Jewish is: religious or ethnic.

Good luck.

[Cute Wolf]

Hmm, I add the phalangitai type because I predict that AS will start pouring Argyraspidai very soon... at least this was the AI I expect to do... Well Nabateans are confirmed faction in EB2 right? so we can use the EB2 Nabateans entirely.... In this time, Phalanx warfare is not yet phased out...

About 2 Hp Zealots... It seems the most logical way to represent "fanatic troops" as they (in game) need to get a killing blow twice... their costs will represent this too...

I hope you read my post before so you can take a look at my mind more clearly...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117191

and I didn't want to spam like that: better all this spammer helps to get a real historical facts research and help in modelling, map making, skinning, balancing, etc
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=117502

so indeed, I will do deep research about that... especially after EB II relased... so I can choose what faction that will be kicked out and replaced... (Judaea will replace Epeiros)

And aside from historical accuracy, I will like to add certain Playability and balance too... You don't want to play a mod that all you do is praying because all your infantry is crappy? this was game afterall, not a real life, and EB is about making, "What if" history...

The game time span will be from 166BCE (Death of Mattathias) up to 4 BCE (Birth of Christ), or 70 AD (Historical sack of Jerusalem), and using 12 turns a year... so the players will find that getting a good trait as a priority...

The Judean Victory condition is somewhat simple, but very challenging indeed... They must own All area from Antioch, Cyprus, Babylon, and Egypt (The Jewish range of Diaspora)... that means they are not only have a mess with AS and Ptolies, but Pahlavans, and Hay as well... The Roman AI also must be scripted on "Mad Conquest" so they will send countless Cohors Reformata against you... Perhaps Exterminating ROMA, and Kill Romaioi will be added as nice victory condition...

Perhaps I will include many cheap arab mercs available in the start (with using your starting money of course) coz I don't think a faction that starts with hording condition could have more than 25% of his starting troops not horde type...

@Moros
I didn't understand french.... but I 'll try to search more details about this case...
Good pics and representation anyway THANKS

[Moros]

Who gave you the idea that there'd be a nabataean faction?

Phalangitai don't belong in a judean unit rooster if you want you're mod to be regarded as somewhat historic. Also there are many fanatics in EB, none of them have 2 HP. An extra HP would make them highly overpowered.

[Cute Wolf]

@ Moros
Well... no Nabateans? and then... lets kick... Syrakousai perhaps? (Allready conquered by Rome...)
I think 2 Hp is the best option for a unit that won't get more than 40 men in Large settings (in RTW), and capable to turn the battle with their furious fight... ... They also won't get much armour... I played a lot with Wothiz Watha and I must hold them in extreme reserve (only ask them to deliver final charges), and I won't have the same thing happned with a Judean General that should be leading his troops in the frontline... smashing enemy troops without any kind of fear...
Maybe you'll say that "Berserk" ability will represent them better... even with 1 Hp, but As I know, berserked unit is uncontrolled, and an uncontrolled General Unit is really ridiculous... (but maybe we can made the Regular Zealots as berserkers?)...

thanks

And this was the rough timespan... From Israeli foreign affairs: Facts about Israel History

166-160 Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
142-129 Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans.
129-63 Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy.
63 Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey.


63 BCE-313
CE
Roman rule
63-4 BCE

Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel;
Temple in Jerusalem refurbished

(CE - The Common Era)
c. 20-33 Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth
66 Jewish revolt against the Romans
70 Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple.

Scripting in 66 BCE, if Romans aren't destroyed yet... they will spawn 7 full stacks that is directed against Levant area...

[Moros]

@ Moros
Well... no Nabateans? and then... lets kick... Syrakousai perhaps? (Allready conquered by Rome...)

The only thing that concerning the nabataeans in EBII is that we planned a regional nabataean camel archer unit, as I told in a thread about wether there'd b camel units in EB II or not. Maybe that's why you thought they were in?

Edit: Note there's still a faction slot or perhaps two that are undecided. If you (or someone else)'d like the nabataeans in, you can always start a case. They seem like a much better candidate than the maccabeans, though I'm in serious doubt of their military power and wether they would last long flanked by the grey death and the yellow fever. On the contrary Arabia is unrepresented, though unit wise there are already many more planned than what we have in EBI.

[Cute Wolf]

well, perhaps I will use whatever the EB II team decided should put on Arabia as starting material...
Now, haow about Zealots?

[MeinPanzer]

OP, if you want some sources for research, here would be your best bets:

Judas Maccabaeus, by Bezalel Bar-Kochva. Probably the best work on the nitty gritty of the Maccabaean revolt, and focuses a lot on the military as well.

The armies of the Hasmonaeans and Herod : from Hellenistic to Roman frameworks, by Israel Shatzman. Doesn't deal with the details of the militaries too much (i.e. composition and armament of forces), but it is an extremely useful study.

Finally, check out this link: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...nsOfLight.html. I would recommend you use the scroll of the War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness carefully, but it can be very helpful for you considering it gives detailed specifications on a fantastical army that is clearly based on the actual Hasmonaean military.

[Moros]

well, perhaps I will use whatever the EB II team decided should put on Arabia as starting material...
Now, haow about Zealots?

I'd give them a morale bonus but never a 2 HP. It was mainly the large numbers of slingers and skirmishers that made their initial armies. And we all experienced that slingers can be an effective force, especially against immobile phalanxes. And cheap too (which is very handy if you only posses one province). So the zealots don't have to be that special, though I'm not sure how to depict them really.

Arbian locals: we'll have bedouins in EB II and normally we'll have probably have about 2 Northern (perhaps even 3?) regionals.

[Jacob Debroedere]

Are you sure zealots took part in the Macabean revolt? I know they did in the Bar Kochba revolt, but I'm not sure about the Macabean.

[Moros]

Are you sure zealots took part in the Macabean revolt? I know they did in the Bar Kochba revolt, but I'm not sure about the Macabean.

What I remember from reading bar kochva a very long time ago and from josephus (not that long ago because of the camlery mentioned) is slingers and skirmishers. I don't think zealots were taking part in Macabean reform, but they should be a recruitable unit at some time IMO.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, Zealots is the most "logical" unit for Judean Elites...

I didn't say Judeans start with one province... They start as Horde... no settlements....

A Slinger could be effective force indeed, but the "Horde Slinger" unit maybe have the worst stat of slingers afterall.. look at this (compare this to EB 1 units)

Compared to the most poor slingers...

type roman missile accensi
dictionary roman_missile_accensi ; Accensi (For Comparison)
category infantry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_missile_sphendenotai_accensi, 30, 0, 0.85
mount_effect chariot +2, horse -2, elephant +1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 2.8, 3.5, 3.4, 4.8, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 1, 0, stone, 133.2, 27, missile, archery, blunt, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 336, 84, 40, 60, 336
ownership seleucid, slave

Here's my proposal to "Horde Slinger" unit...

type judean horde slingers
dictionary judean_horde_slingers ; Horde Slingers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_missile_sphendenotai_accensi, 60, 0, 0.85
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, horde_unit
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 1, 1, stone, 120, 25, missile, archery, blunt, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 7, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 3, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 7, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 500, 0, 60, 80, 500
ownership judea(use any faction that will be replaced), slave

did u think that poor missile infantry stand any chance once their bullets was totally spent? (7 attack, 3 defense, low lethality....)
So this was the idea, of adding some phalanx unit (pantodapoi phalangitai) for Judaea, to made them still playable...

Made them all comprised of Gund-i Palta is not a good idea too... too many skirmishers will guarantee your men will be rided down by seleukid Prodromoi

[MeinPanzer]

So this was the idea, of adding some phalanx unit (pantodapoi phalangitai) for Judaea, to made them still playable...

Made them all comprised of Gund-i Palta is not a good idea too... too many skirmishers will guarantee your men will be rided down by seleukid Prodromoi

So are you trying to make the Hasmonaeans historically accurate or "playable" in your terms? Because the two are not compatible in this case. There is no evidence of phalanxes being used by the Hasmonaeans. For a large portion of the Maccabaean revolts, the Hasmonaean forces were composed of little more than skirmishers. It is only after the purification of the temple that the army was expanded and heavier troops were introduced (though even then, these were troops like thureophoroi and perhaps thorakitai for infantry and probably a Hellenistic heavy cavalry unit - definitely no phalangites).

[Cute Wolf]

[EDIT]
[soory] some sort of internet traffic jam was happned... read my post after this

[Cute Wolf]

@MeinPanzer
Bit of Both.. with playability had more weights... And this campaign was "What IF the Judeans field their own heavy infantry....." OH... thanks, you reminded me to made them some Thorakitai skin...

Considering EB II won't be relased soon, I decide to mod them in BI...
Soon (about two month, after my Chemistry competition is over especially...) I will made a faction Preview in RTW Mod forum... but sorry, certainly not in EB 1 forum...

Well, I'll think I want a permission from EB 1 Creator, because after some time adding units, EB 1 Allready hit the hardcode after some units... (try to add 2 units for Horde slingers and horde spearmen... result in CTD... and I'm not yet add their cav's... And I just don't want to mess up the neat EBBS script for my 12 turns per year script... I'm going to use BI because the Judeans was horde at the Start, and for EB I just want to use their awesome units.... and descriptions... and their balanced stats... and sounds...(wait... sounds? I'll think i only copy some of their awesome unit sounds such as Hetairoi... and mix them with vanilla sounds...)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

some factions like AS, Ptolies, Saba, Romani, Hay, and KH will be an near-exact copy paste from EB I

the credit is yours rightfully ....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

just give me some reply, who's i should pm to get their permission please? MAA? Bovi? Foot? others?

well... maybe I should start concepting those factions, and after ready, made a new thread in RTW Modification forum...

At least this mod will mostly look as "EB facelift" mod... centered in Levantine area (spawn from Italy up to Persia)...

The Factions I think I should include is: (some that lies in the fringes of the map is UNPLAYABLE...)

Maccabeids (The HERO faction of this mod)
Arche Seleukeia
Arche Ptolemaioi
Saba
Nabataea (the Arab Faction)
Hayasdan
Pontos
Pahlavans / Askani (using Astraphoenix's naming mod)
Senatus Populus Que Romanus (unplayable... got enermous AI boost, and sent countless stacks of Units... the Real BAD GUY in this mod... not unkillable though... killing them is the VC for All factions)
Steppe Hordes (unplayable, as they are projected into annoying hordes (1 faction, but many hordes, and unkillable; (respawn if killed)) that roams the northern fringes of this Mod)
Basileon Indo-Hellenikon (unplayable, representing minor kingdoms in the eastern fringes of the Map (1 faction, scattered starting points, and unkillable (respawn also))
Avernii (unplayable and unkillable... start as annoying horde that roams the west fringe of the map... not as numerous as the Steppe Hordes tough...)
Aithiophia (unplayable kingdom that sit in the south portion of the map - unkillable, but not aggresive at all)

The last four fations (Steppe hordes, Basileion Indo-Hellenikon, Avernii, and Aithiophia), didn't get many units, as they are just border guard factions and unkillable... the other factions though... get deeper course of units and structures... Including the Bad-Ass Romani... (the main Villain is need a clear representation too... )

I still need a lot of learning... so thanks for all your advice...

Ohh yeah... say this to all the "Jewish faction" spammer.... Please help me in this new mod.... OK?!

[Moros]

@MeinPanzer
Bit of Both.. with playability had more weights... And this campaign was "What IF the Judeans field their own heavy infantry....." OH... thanks, you reminded me to made them some Thorakitai skin...

Considering EB II won't be relased soon, I decide to mod them in BI...
Soon (about two month, after my Chemistry competition is over especially...) I will made a faction Preview in RTW Mod forum... but sorry, certainly not in EB 1 forum...

Well, I'll think I want a permission from EB 1 Creator, because after some time adding units, EB 1 Allready hit the hardcode after some units... (try to add 2 units for Horde slingers and horde spearmen... result in CTD... and I'm not yet add their cav's... And I just don't want to mess up the neat EBBS script for my 12 turns per year script... I'm going to use BI because the Judeans was horde at the Start, and for EB I just want to use their awesome units.... and descriptions... and their balanced stats... and sounds...(wait... sounds? I'll think i only copy some of their awesome unit sounds such as Hetairoi... and mix them with vanilla sounds...)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

some factions like AS, Ptolies, Saba, Romani, Hay, and KH will be an near-exact copy paste from EB I

the credit is yours rightfully ....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

just give me some reply, who's i should pm to get their permission please? MAA? Bovi? Foot? others?

well... maybe I should start concepting those factions, and after ready, made a new thread in RTW Modification forum...

At least this mod will mostly look as "EB facelift" mod... centered in Levantine area (spawn from Italy up to Persia)...

The Factions I think I should include is: (some that lies in the fringes of the map is UNPLAYABLE...)

Maccabeids (The HERO faction of this mod)
Arche Seleukeia
Arche Ptolemaioi
Saba
Nabataea (the Arab Faction)
Hayasdan
Pontos
Pahlavans / Askani (using Astraphoenix's naming mod)
Senatus Populus Que Romanus (unplayable... got enermous AI boost, and sent countless stacks of Units... the Real BAD GUY in this mod... not unkillable though... killing them is the VC for All factions)
Steppe Hordes (unplayable, as they are projected into annoying hordes (1 faction, but many hordes, and unkillable; (respawn if killed)) that roams the northern fringes of this Mod)
Basileon Indo-Hellenikon (unplayable, representing minor kingdoms in the eastern fringes of the Map (1 faction, scattered starting points, and unkillable (respawn also))
Avernii (unplayable and unkillable... start as annoying horde that roams the west fringe of the map... not as numerous as the Steppe Hordes tough...)
Aithiophia (unplayable kingdom that sit in the south portion of the map - unkillable, but not aggresive at all)

The last four fations (Steppe hordes, Basileion Indo-Hellenikon, Avernii, and Aithiophia), didn't get many units, as they are just border guard factions and unkillable... the other factions though... get deeper course of units and structures... Including the Bad-Ass Romani... (the main Villain is need a clear representation too... )

I still need a lot of learning... so thanks for all your advice...

Ohh yeah... say this to all the "Jewish faction" spammer.... Please help me in this new mod.... OK?!

They did have heavy infantry, just not at the initial revolt. You can't have heavy infantry popping up like that. There wasn't any military culture anymore. At the times of Herod, there was good infantry again. Mostly thureophoroi and thorakitai style (scale was found at masada...) and some heavy infantry and possibly heavy horse archers could be an addition.

Of course if gameplay is much more important than history you can do whatever you want. And calling the Maccabeids a hero-faction, seems to point that way. But I tought to help you started anyway, even though I'm not that familiar with this part of the world and history.

Edit: for permission you can pm any EB member though most of the time it's MAA who gets the requests, as he is our pr and public forum guy.

[abou]

And aside from historical accuracy, I will like to add certain Playability and balance too... You don't want to play a mod that all you do is praying because all your infantry is crappy? this was game afterall, not a real life, and EB is about making, "What if" history...

So you're beginning to understand how not viable it is to have a Jewish faction so you're compensating? And if you're not going to make it historically accurate, what's the point of using EB then anyway?

And your description of the Maccabaeans/Jews as a "Hero" faction leads me to believe that you have a lot of reading to do. The situation was hardly black & white.

Start reading:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D...refox-a&pgis=1

[Cute Wolf]

Allready sent PM to MAA...

After that... I will start doing reserach and seeking help... thanks

@ Abou
I want to use EB as the base of my mod.. but without the EBBS script, and it will run on BI.... EB has solid historical accuracy of the units (aside from awesomeness), so I want to use their units and animation to add EB-ish fellings

[Tellos Athenaios]

@ Abou
I want to use EB as the base of my mod.. but without the EBBS script, and it will run on BI.... EB has solid historical accuracy of the units (aside from awesomeness), so I want to use their units and animation to add EB-ish fellings

NOW I am confused. A submod for EB II which runs on M2TW-K itself, will totally and thoroughly depend on the more & more advanced features exposed therein...and... porting to RTW-BI? Any idea on how you are going to tackle the multiple skins per unit feature?

[TancredTheNorman]

To Cute Wolf

As a playable faction instead of emerging to give Egypt a hard time (which it desperately needed in the original RTW) they might be best in a seperate setting.

Well in general I like the idea, but the one problem is if you are submodding anyway why keep most of the map?

I would probably have the Romans emerge, and emerge most likely as an ally of the revolt, and an enemy of the Selucids, and the Ptolemys (sorry for the modern spelling here, but I am a bit tired and everyone here knows what I mean )

I also do agree that the Judeans shouldn't have a Phalanx, it was dying out at this time, even Selucids where making a lot of use of other arms like cavalry, and the Ptolemys forces would not have resembled a Greek force despite the use of Greek officers and nobles.

The zealots however confused me. Are they the generals body gaurd units? Are they part of the Horde? Are they elites? If they aren't the generals body gaurd how many will you be able to field without going into debt?

While I like your idea, it could use some work around the edges, I would be glad to help you with some of the history though, but I am no expert on Jewish history.

Abou

Cute-Wolf quoted history. I'm very sorry there was an unjust Selucid King, but that is historically accurate. Between your extremely condescending manner towards her, and your own lack of accuracy I think you have some type of pro-Selucid bias.


This is my answer to did they have zealots in this revolt.

I would say yes, zealotry doesn't neccessarily mean idiocy

[GMT]

Abou

Cute-Wolf quoted history. I'm very sorry there was an unjust Selucid King, but that is historically accurate. Between your extremely condescending manner towards her, and your own lack of accuracy I think you have some type of pro-Selucid bias.


This is my answer to did they have zealots in this revolt.

I would say yes, zealotry doesn't neccessarily mean idiocy

Sure and there's absolutly no pro jewish bias in this thread..

Cute-Wolf just wants to create some uber leet jewish faction with wich he can conquer the world. Nothing wrong with that but don't pretend it to be historically accurate then..

[Tellos Athenaios]

Abou

Cute-Wolf quoted history. I'm very sorry there was an unjust Selucid King, but that is historically accurate. Between your extremely condescending manner towards her, and your own lack of accuracy I think you have some type of pro-Selucid bias.

Actually I thought that when it comes to the Seleukid kings they by and large had a rather good relationship with their Jewish subjects? (With of course one famous exception here.) As has been pointed out time and again a Jewish faction is (a) highly speculative unless you start in a scenario where they are already present, (b) weak. They simply don't have anything of a true military of sorts; this is something they'll try to develop later on but they basically start as Apeleutheroi and owe their success largely to the unfavourable (or favourable depending on how you look at it) terrain of Judea which forces armies to go through a small number of well-known routes some of them containing well known locations for ambushes... Nothing of that except the particular sub-par military of the Judeans can be represented in any TW game yet, so a Judean faction works out as beyond-nigh-impossible if you give it what it appears to have had.

This is my answer to did they have zealots in this revolt.

I would say yes, zealotry doesn't neccessarily mean idiocy

And neither does zealotry neccesarily equate to fighting in distinct units? Which is rather more to the point: did the Judeans group particular fanatic people in a special (`zealot') unit? If yes, then a zealot unit has basis; if no then obviously not.

[Cute Wolf]

Keep up the whole map... to create a bigger challange....
But actually, my real reason is to made the Seleukid also kept up busy in his other borders as well...

I decide to put Zealots as distinct units, made two version of them, bodyguard type (disciplined, with 2 Hp), and normal one (1 Hp w Berserker), they're elite anyway... If u ever play Troy TW, I will made them almost like the Dorians "Lokhos Basileos", but with their Bodyguard type doesn't berserk....

[Dutchhoplite]

I also want to mention:

Judas Maccabeus: Rebel of Israel by Mark Healy and Richard Hook. It might not be the best book on the subject but it's a fun and quick read and it's got some nice pictures ;)

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

[Krusader]

I also want to mention:

Judas Maccabeus: Rebel of Israel by Mark Healy and Richard Hook. It might not be the best book on the subject but it's a fun and quick read and it's got some nice pictures ;)

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

Hmm, what should I go for? Some forum member's word or sources?
Anywho, this is not meant to be historically accurate submod, so for all I care the Jews in this mod can have Merkava IV's :)

[Cute Wolf]

Merkava is the name for chariot isn't? I hope I could get some of those... Chariot archery is certainly still a good way, especially they can have 120 arrows per men and still logical...

WOOPS: you mean tank? LOL

[Krusader]

Merkava is the name for chariot isn't? I hope I could get some of those... Chariot archery is certainly still a good way, especially they can have 120 arrows per men and still logical...

WOOPS: you mean tank? LOL

Yeah meant the tank. That's why I added the IV back, as I know merkava is Hebrew for chariot :)

[bobbin]

Hmm, what should I go for? Some forum member's word or sources?
Anywho, this is not meant to be historically accurate submod, so for all I care the Jews in this mod can have Merkava IV's :)

Ha! Yeah I heard the IDF were pretty active back then:)