Maccabean Revolt... A SUBMOD for EB II

[Cute Wolf]

Well, Zealots is the most "logical" unit for Judean Elites...

I didn't say Judeans start with one province... They start as Horde... no settlements....

A Slinger could be effective force indeed, but the "Horde Slinger" unit maybe have the worst stat of slingers afterall.. look at this (compare this to EB 1 units)

Compared to the most poor slingers...

type roman missile accensi
dictionary roman_missile_accensi ; Accensi (For Comparison)
category infantry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_missile_sphendenotai_accensi, 30, 0, 0.85
mount_effect chariot +2, horse -2, elephant +1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 2.8, 3.5, 3.4, 4.8, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 1, 0, stone, 133.2, 27, missile, archery, blunt, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 7, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 336, 84, 40, 60, 336
ownership seleucid, slave

Here's my proposal to "Horde Slinger" unit...

type judean horde slingers
dictionary judean_horde_slingers ; Horde Slingers
category infantry
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_missile_sphendenotai_accensi, 60, 0, 0.85
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, horde_unit
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 5, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 1, 1, stone, 120, 25, missile, archery, blunt, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 7, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 3, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 7, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 500, 0, 60, 80, 500
ownership judea(use any faction that will be replaced), slave

did u think that poor missile infantry stand any chance once their bullets was totally spent? (7 attack, 3 defense, low lethality....)
So this was the idea, of adding some phalanx unit (pantodapoi phalangitai) for Judaea, to made them still playable...

Made them all comprised of Gund-i Palta is not a good idea too... too many skirmishers will guarantee your men will be rided down by seleukid Prodromoi

[MeinPanzer]

So this was the idea, of adding some phalanx unit (pantodapoi phalangitai) for Judaea, to made them still playable...

Made them all comprised of Gund-i Palta is not a good idea too... too many skirmishers will guarantee your men will be rided down by seleukid Prodromoi

So are you trying to make the Hasmonaeans historically accurate or "playable" in your terms? Because the two are not compatible in this case. There is no evidence of phalanxes being used by the Hasmonaeans. For a large portion of the Maccabaean revolts, the Hasmonaean forces were composed of little more than skirmishers. It is only after the purification of the temple that the army was expanded and heavier troops were introduced (though even then, these were troops like thureophoroi and perhaps thorakitai for infantry and probably a Hellenistic heavy cavalry unit - definitely no phalangites).

[Cute Wolf]

[EDIT]
[soory] some sort of internet traffic jam was happned... read my post after this

[Cute Wolf]

@MeinPanzer
Bit of Both.. with playability had more weights... And this campaign was "What IF the Judeans field their own heavy infantry....." OH... thanks, you reminded me to made them some Thorakitai skin...

Considering EB II won't be relased soon, I decide to mod them in BI...
Soon (about two month, after my Chemistry competition is over especially...) I will made a faction Preview in RTW Mod forum... but sorry, certainly not in EB 1 forum...

Well, I'll think I want a permission from EB 1 Creator, because after some time adding units, EB 1 Allready hit the hardcode after some units... (try to add 2 units for Horde slingers and horde spearmen... result in CTD... and I'm not yet add their cav's... And I just don't want to mess up the neat EBBS script for my 12 turns per year script... I'm going to use BI because the Judeans was horde at the Start, and for EB I just want to use their awesome units.... and descriptions... and their balanced stats... and sounds...(wait... sounds? I'll think i only copy some of their awesome unit sounds such as Hetairoi... and mix them with vanilla sounds...)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

some factions like AS, Ptolies, Saba, Romani, Hay, and KH will be an near-exact copy paste from EB I

the credit is yours rightfully ....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

just give me some reply, who's i should pm to get their permission please? MAA? Bovi? Foot? others?

well... maybe I should start concepting those factions, and after ready, made a new thread in RTW Modification forum...

At least this mod will mostly look as "EB facelift" mod... centered in Levantine area (spawn from Italy up to Persia)...

The Factions I think I should include is: (some that lies in the fringes of the map is UNPLAYABLE...)

Maccabeids (The HERO faction of this mod)
Arche Seleukeia
Arche Ptolemaioi
Saba
Nabataea (the Arab Faction)
Hayasdan
Pontos
Pahlavans / Askani (using Astraphoenix's naming mod)
Senatus Populus Que Romanus (unplayable... got enermous AI boost, and sent countless stacks of Units... the Real BAD GUY in this mod... not unkillable though... killing them is the VC for All factions)
Steppe Hordes (unplayable, as they are projected into annoying hordes (1 faction, but many hordes, and unkillable; (respawn if killed)) that roams the northern fringes of this Mod)
Basileon Indo-Hellenikon (unplayable, representing minor kingdoms in the eastern fringes of the Map (1 faction, scattered starting points, and unkillable (respawn also))
Avernii (unplayable and unkillable... start as annoying horde that roams the west fringe of the map... not as numerous as the Steppe Hordes tough...)
Aithiophia (unplayable kingdom that sit in the south portion of the map - unkillable, but not aggresive at all)

The last four fations (Steppe hordes, Basileion Indo-Hellenikon, Avernii, and Aithiophia), didn't get many units, as they are just border guard factions and unkillable... the other factions though... get deeper course of units and structures... Including the Bad-Ass Romani... (the main Villain is need a clear representation too... )

I still need a lot of learning... so thanks for all your advice...

Ohh yeah... say this to all the "Jewish faction" spammer.... Please help me in this new mod.... OK?!

[Moros]

@MeinPanzer
Bit of Both.. with playability had more weights... And this campaign was "What IF the Judeans field their own heavy infantry....." OH... thanks, you reminded me to made them some Thorakitai skin...

Considering EB II won't be relased soon, I decide to mod them in BI...
Soon (about two month, after my Chemistry competition is over especially...) I will made a faction Preview in RTW Mod forum... but sorry, certainly not in EB 1 forum...

Well, I'll think I want a permission from EB 1 Creator, because after some time adding units, EB 1 Allready hit the hardcode after some units... (try to add 2 units for Horde slingers and horde spearmen... result in CTD... and I'm not yet add their cav's... And I just don't want to mess up the neat EBBS script for my 12 turns per year script... I'm going to use BI because the Judeans was horde at the Start, and for EB I just want to use their awesome units.... and descriptions... and their balanced stats... and sounds...(wait... sounds? I'll think i only copy some of their awesome unit sounds such as Hetairoi... and mix them with vanilla sounds...)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

some factions like AS, Ptolies, Saba, Romani, Hay, and KH will be an near-exact copy paste from EB I

the credit is yours rightfully ....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

just give me some reply, who's i should pm to get their permission please? MAA? Bovi? Foot? others?

well... maybe I should start concepting those factions, and after ready, made a new thread in RTW Modification forum...

At least this mod will mostly look as "EB facelift" mod... centered in Levantine area (spawn from Italy up to Persia)...

The Factions I think I should include is: (some that lies in the fringes of the map is UNPLAYABLE...)

Maccabeids (The HERO faction of this mod)
Arche Seleukeia
Arche Ptolemaioi
Saba
Nabataea (the Arab Faction)
Hayasdan
Pontos
Pahlavans / Askani (using Astraphoenix's naming mod)
Senatus Populus Que Romanus (unplayable... got enermous AI boost, and sent countless stacks of Units... the Real BAD GUY in this mod... not unkillable though... killing them is the VC for All factions)
Steppe Hordes (unplayable, as they are projected into annoying hordes (1 faction, but many hordes, and unkillable; (respawn if killed)) that roams the northern fringes of this Mod)
Basileon Indo-Hellenikon (unplayable, representing minor kingdoms in the eastern fringes of the Map (1 faction, scattered starting points, and unkillable (respawn also))
Avernii (unplayable and unkillable... start as annoying horde that roams the west fringe of the map... not as numerous as the Steppe Hordes tough...)
Aithiophia (unplayable kingdom that sit in the south portion of the map - unkillable, but not aggresive at all)

The last four fations (Steppe hordes, Basileion Indo-Hellenikon, Avernii, and Aithiophia), didn't get many units, as they are just border guard factions and unkillable... the other factions though... get deeper course of units and structures... Including the Bad-Ass Romani... (the main Villain is need a clear representation too... )

I still need a lot of learning... so thanks for all your advice...

Ohh yeah... say this to all the "Jewish faction" spammer.... Please help me in this new mod.... OK?!

They did have heavy infantry, just not at the initial revolt. You can't have heavy infantry popping up like that. There wasn't any military culture anymore. At the times of Herod, there was good infantry again. Mostly thureophoroi and thorakitai style (scale was found at masada...) and some heavy infantry and possibly heavy horse archers could be an addition.

Of course if gameplay is much more important than history you can do whatever you want. And calling the Maccabeids a hero-faction, seems to point that way. But I tought to help you started anyway, even though I'm not that familiar with this part of the world and history.

Edit: for permission you can pm any EB member though most of the time it's MAA who gets the requests, as he is our pr and public forum guy.

[Dutchhoplite]

I also want to mention:

Judas Maccabeus: Rebel of Israel by Mark Healy and Richard Hook. It might not be the best book on the subject but it's a fun and quick read and it's got some nice pictures ;)

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

[Krusader]

I also want to mention:

Judas Maccabeus: Rebel of Israel by Mark Healy and Richard Hook. It might not be the best book on the subject but it's a fun and quick read and it's got some nice pictures ;)

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

Hmm, what should I go for? Some forum member's word or sources?
Anywho, this is not meant to be historically accurate submod, so for all I care the Jews in this mod can have Merkava IV's :)

[Cute Wolf]

Merkava is the name for chariot isn't? I hope I could get some of those... Chariot archery is certainly still a good way, especially they can have 120 arrows per men and still logical...

WOOPS: you mean tank? LOL

[Krusader]

Merkava is the name for chariot isn't? I hope I could get some of those... Chariot archery is certainly still a good way, especially they can have 120 arrows per men and still logical...

WOOPS: you mean tank? LOL

Yeah meant the tank. That's why I added the IV back, as I know merkava is Hebrew for chariot :)

[bobbin]

Hmm, what should I go for? Some forum member's word or sources?
Anywho, this is not meant to be historically accurate submod, so for all I care the Jews in this mod can have Merkava IV's :)

Ha! Yeah I heard the IDF were pretty active back then:)

[Alexandros_III]

Sounds interesting. I always thought there should have been the Jews in EB1.

[Watchman]

Iudaioi Taxeis.

[Moros]

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

And your firm believe is based on? I for one believe the earth is a cube.

[Dutchhoplite]

Much everything about this army is based conjecture? The sources are not exactly strong ;)

As for pikes, the Maccabees made an effort at confronting Seleucid armies in open battle and *could* have imitated Hellenistic military practice. Given these two factors, I vote for pikes. But I concede that there is no evidence
beyond logicical assumption.

[Moros]

Much everything about this army is based conjecture? The sources are not exactly strong ;)

As for pikes, the Maccabees made an effort at confronting Seleucid armies in open battle and *could* have imitated Hellenistic military practice. Given these two factors, I vote for pikes. But I concede that there is no evidence
beyond logicical assumption.

Logical assumption would be making the units from avaible archeological data, the use of historical sources (as Josephus) combined with the military standards from the region. Which leads us to thureophoroi like units, when the army was worked out.

For the revolting army however the sources are clear. Mostlyif not completely skirmishers and slingers. You don't believe that an army that revolted had an instant highly trained and equipped army? If that's what logical assumption is, I guess the earth must indeed be a cube.

Pick up a book by Bar-Kochva or even Osprey (I believe they have one on it) if you want at least a somewhat historical basis. If even that isn't wanted well I'd suggest go ahead and give them the Macedonian phalanx.

[Watchman]

Though, pikemen are relatively easy to train if it comes to that; revolting Swedish peasants during the 1500s are known to have formed reasonably decent pike formations in battle, for example (although obviously they weren't of the calibre of professional mercs from the Continent). The main thing is the drill, after all. The Macedonian originals were mostly retrained psiloi too...

Doesn't mean the Israelite rebels had the time and resources to do it, of course. But then they may not have needed to either - AFAIK there's a lot of rugged terrain there where even irregular light troops should well be able to rip close-order heavies, nevermind ones as grossly formation-dependent as pikemen, a proverbial new one.
I daresay a lot bigger tactical headache were probably the cavalry (ever the bane of light infantry in the open) and peltast- and thureophoroi-style lighter infantry which had little trouble in broken terrain...

[Dutchhoplite]

the use of historical sources (as Josephus)

Josephus clearly speaks of phalanxes of both sides. That doesn't sound like a confrontation between a phalanx and poorly equipped skirmishers, does it??

For the revolting army however the sources are clear. Mostlyif not completely skirmishers and slingers. You don't believe that an army that revolted had an instant highly trained and equipped army? If that's what logical assumption is, I guess the earth must indeed be a cube.

What sources Maccabees?? Josphus?? Rather biased don't you think??

By the way, Mr. Maccabeus waved his magic wand and an army sprouted out of the ground. That's the only way possible

Pick up a book by Bar-Kochva or even Osprey if you want at least a somewhat historical basis (I believe they have one on it)

Errr...please read: Judas Maccabaeus: The Jewish Struggle Against the Seleucids, from page 68 and further.

If even that isn't wanted well I'd suggest go ahead and give them the Macedonian phalanx.