Maccabean Revolt... A SUBMOD for EB II

[Moros]

On the phalanx discussion: i firmly believe that the early Maccabees had a force
armed and deployed to the practice of Hellenistic phalanx troops only less well equipped.

And your firm believe is based on? I for one believe the earth is a cube.

[Dutchhoplite]

Much everything about this army is based conjecture? The sources are not exactly strong ;)

As for pikes, the Maccabees made an effort at confronting Seleucid armies in open battle and *could* have imitated Hellenistic military practice. Given these two factors, I vote for pikes. But I concede that there is no evidence
beyond logicical assumption.

[Moros]

Much everything about this army is based conjecture? The sources are not exactly strong ;)

As for pikes, the Maccabees made an effort at confronting Seleucid armies in open battle and *could* have imitated Hellenistic military practice. Given these two factors, I vote for pikes. But I concede that there is no evidence
beyond logicical assumption.

Logical assumption would be making the units from avaible archeological data, the use of historical sources (as Josephus) combined with the military standards from the region. Which leads us to thureophoroi like units, when the army was worked out.

For the revolting army however the sources are clear. Mostlyif not completely skirmishers and slingers. You don't believe that an army that revolted had an instant highly trained and equipped army? If that's what logical assumption is, I guess the earth must indeed be a cube.

Pick up a book by Bar-Kochva or even Osprey (I believe they have one on it) if you want at least a somewhat historical basis. If even that isn't wanted well I'd suggest go ahead and give them the Macedonian phalanx.

[Watchman]

Though, pikemen are relatively easy to train if it comes to that; revolting Swedish peasants during the 1500s are known to have formed reasonably decent pike formations in battle, for example (although obviously they weren't of the calibre of professional mercs from the Continent). The main thing is the drill, after all. The Macedonian originals were mostly retrained psiloi too...

Doesn't mean the Israelite rebels had the time and resources to do it, of course. But then they may not have needed to either - AFAIK there's a lot of rugged terrain there where even irregular light troops should well be able to rip close-order heavies, nevermind ones as grossly formation-dependent as pikemen, a proverbial new one.
I daresay a lot bigger tactical headache were probably the cavalry (ever the bane of light infantry in the open) and peltast- and thureophoroi-style lighter infantry which had little trouble in broken terrain...

[Dutchhoplite]

the use of historical sources (as Josephus)

Josephus clearly speaks of phalanxes of both sides. That doesn't sound like a confrontation between a phalanx and poorly equipped skirmishers, does it??

For the revolting army however the sources are clear. Mostlyif not completely skirmishers and slingers. You don't believe that an army that revolted had an instant highly trained and equipped army? If that's what logical assumption is, I guess the earth must indeed be a cube.

What sources Maccabees?? Josphus?? Rather biased don't you think??

By the way, Mr. Maccabeus waved his magic wand and an army sprouted out of the ground. That's the only way possible

Pick up a book by Bar-Kochva or even Osprey if you want at least a somewhat historical basis (I believe they have one on it)

Errr...please read: Judas Maccabaeus: The Jewish Struggle Against the Seleucids, from page 68 and further.

If even that isn't wanted well I'd suggest go ahead and give them the Macedonian phalanx.

[keravnos]

From a post of mine, in TWCENTER

Three units I would love to see are the following... (all 5 are historically attested) --I have taken the liberty of adding more units, as I think they should be done and maybe form a base for a mod which would center on the state that the Makabaioi created.

@Aqd, thanks in advance for any work you might do based on the following. Much appreciated.

-Ioudaioi Klerouchoi, they would be the Cleruchs who would be given land in order to fight for the Hellenistic Kings and/or be used as guard forces to outposts. They were allied to both Alexandros and Ptolemaios (as Josephus recounts-could find the original text if it is required- and given land to settle and priviledges as a result). In Ptolemaic Egypt, they would be considered "Hellenes" and in Ptolemaic Alexandria, just before the death of Cleopatra, they would number 300.000 people out of 600.000 total population.

I picture them looking something like the ones below...
(thureoi found in drawings at the synagogue of Dura Europos), to be used for coloring the thureos shields.




-Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi, they would be the "hundred fighters" aka elite fighters of the Makkabaioi (8000 in number, most probably mercs), or the Hasmoneans ."Hundred-fighters" tuted as such because each of them could slay 100 enemies or already had. They would be armed much like the Thureos carrying troops you show there but with a major difference. Their thureoi shields according to the texts we have were bronze coated much like the earlier round "aspis shields" of Classical era hoplites. The bronze coating would go OVER THE FINISHED THUREOS.
http://books.google.gr/books?id=t05o...num=1#PPA94,M1

I would give them an "ascalon" helmet

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

or a sidon helmet, (the following is from a Ptolemaic grave) (side)
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.co.../sidontype.JPG

front,
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2...ic_soldier.jpg

(as it was found in present day Askelon in Israel), a long kopis sword (initially from the cavalry, but the elite infantry units carried it as well) a bronze clad thureos shield (1.1 meters in length)

The thureoi would look something like this...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They would look something like this,

and


bronze coated like the following:


Please note that the bronze coating would be hammered into place over a finished thureos. This means that on top of an already existing thureos shield a bronze piece of corresponding dimensions would be placed then hammered and chiseled into place by craftsment. This would ensure added protection to the thureos from blunt instruments that might otherwise crack the wood, with the disadvantage that the thureos shield would weigh more. This, thureos, therefore would only serve its purpose of extended protection for the one carrying it, when they were experienced powerful troops. Otherwise, it would have been too heavy and cumbersome to carry in battle. The bronze coating, even if considered by some as pureley cosmetic did protect the wood underneath and also had and added advantage: It would reflect sunlight on the assaulting enemies breaking their concentration at exactly the time where they would strike by directing the sunlight on their eyes.

Thureos would have a spine (non covered in bronze like the rest of the thureos) and the following as an emblem, one on each side of the spine of the thureos. It would be emblazoned on the shield.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...us_c_40BCE.jpg

They would wear a chain mail cuirass exactly like the following Ptolemaic soldier of 145 BCE,
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2...ic_soldier.jpg

Ioudaioi Zelotai, the following pic is inspired by those who fought in Massada,


This would be a very interesting unit to have. Recruited in the general area of Israel, with scale armor, NO helmet (therefore reducing their armor somewhat) but with devastating assault and morale. Could attack without orders, though.

Ioudaioi toxotai no further info needed, I think than the pic.



-Nabataioi Thureophoroi, they would carry a thureos much like anyone else at that time, but the rest of their outfit would ressemble an Arabian of today. They would wear pants as well.
the following...



but with sandals instead of boots and arabic headscarf wrapped around their heads. NO BOW.

[keravnos]

Josephus clearly speaks of phalanxes of both sides. That doesn't sound like a confrontation between a phalanx and poorly equipped skirmishers, does it??

Phalanx does NOT mean pike. Hoplites too could fight in phalanx formation, meaning interlocked shields and organized fighting. Using that reasoning both phallanxes could be composed of thureos carrying troops...
see...

6. The great fault of most interpretations of the military aspects of the scroll to date have been their self-imposed limitation allowing of only two possible interpretations: a Roman model, or a Hellenistic model as depicted in the tactical manuals of Arrian, Aelian and Asklepiodotos. Further possibilities need to be examined - such as a Hellenistic model based not on pike phalanxes, but on the other common Hellenistic line-of battle infantryman - the thureophoros, or even a uniquely Jewish model

Errr...please read: Judas Maccabaeus: The Jewish Struggle Against the Seleucids, from page 68 and further.

Will try to locate that, seems useful.

[Ghaust the Moor]

Sounds intresting. But EBII hasn't come out yet. Are you making this for EBI?

[keravnos]

I posted this here for whomever might make anything out of it. I posted the same post in a thread over at TWCENTER where AqD makes some Eastern units.

[Alexandros_III]

Sounds interesting. I always thought there should have been the Jews in EB1.

[Watchman]

Iudaioi Taxeis.

[Cute Wolf]

I think that experiment will be made on EB-BI first, coz EB II is still long way here...

According to that historical sources, some Jews allready enrolled into Seleukid and Ptolemaic army, and hence, some of them maybe allready got the drill as Pantodapoi phalangitai, or even Klerouchoi... IF they support maccabeans, they shouldn't forget their phalanx drill completely... at least, adding Pantodapoi phalangitai is a logical conclusion...

Ahh, according to the cramped - up EDU of EB 1, I think the first unit to be included is Iudaioi Ekatontamachoi, we can use Dosidastakelii skin and made them as bodyguards...

Anyone had list of units that wasn't used in EB campaign?
I just know some: Dosidastakelli, Ordhmalica, Saka Armoured Nobles,...

And because I want to remove Epeiros (anyway, they are allready long goner in this timeframe...) I want to replace : Mollosianagema and Chaonion Agema too... maybe the Epeirote Strategos was renamed Iudaioi Strategoi...

[Moros]

According to that historical sources, some Jews allready enrolled into Seleukid and Ptolemaic army, and hence, some of them maybe allready got the drill as Pantodapoi phalangitai, or even Klerouchoi... IF they support maccabeans, they shouldn't forget their phalanx drill completely... at least, adding Pantodapoi phalangitai is a logical conclusion...

Yes a lot of jews served in hellenic armies or as mecenaries. Most appear to have fought the thureophoroistyle. Phalangitai aren't a logical addition.

About nabataeans, as I did some research on them to see what possible local arab units we could include. I'd say thureophoroi like unit could be included but shouldn't be avaible from the start (+/- 160BC right?), I'd wait to include them untill the first century BC. You can give them either a hellenic set of clothes (tunic and sandals) or possibly persian inspired ones. (pants and shoes) You might want to think about arming them with axes.

[Moros]

@Keravnos:
just a question: where does this shield come from?

[bobbin]

Its the Witham Sheild, a celtic shield in the British Museum, think they found it near Lincoln.

Edit: here a nice drawing of it to show the features a bit clearer

[abou]

I was going to respond to this thread much, much earlier, but two things got in the way: the first is that the ORG went down; the second is that I'm a bit worried being labeled "pro-Seleucid" is a nice way of saying anti-Semitic. I was just want to make it clear that that is certainly not the case; however, having studied history, I take a much more even-handed approach and viewpoint. Also, not being religious, I don't have the ties to the topic that maybe some people do. Furthermore, it is important to remember that, when I stated that the Maccabees definitely do not have the makings of a "hero" faction, I mentioned that the world is not black & white. Essentially, I said that the situation is full of grays - i.e. I am not simply favoring one over the other. However, it is true that I am critical of the Maccabees - especially regarding the hypocrisy on their part once they gained their independence.

Generally, people tend to portray Antiochos IV as some raving lunatic - especially due to Jewish accounts. I think a little bit of inquiry will show otherwise (see Sekunda's note in his appendix in Hellenistic Infantry Reform...). It is also critical to remember that the initial movements toward Hellenization of Jerusalem was begun by the Jews; not Antiochos. Essentially, it was new kids vs. old guard with the former petitioning a change in the status of Jerusalem to a polis, which occurred. This meant that the old charter with which the Jews struck with Antiochos III granting certain rights (exemption from certain taxes, etc) and limitations became defunct, which the old guard didn't like. So what happened?

Well, the old guard didn't like this, did some very nasty things to the new kids, and rebelled. So here, we see the rebellion begun not because of pressure by Antiochos IV, but because of internal conflicts within the Jerusalem.

Now, if you're a ruler and one of your cities revolts, what do you do? Well, back in the old days, you put it down and you put it down hard. The response to the Maccabees' revolt was no different than what anyone else would have received had they done the same. And, honestly, the Jews should be lucky that they didn't revolt when Alexander was around, because if they did we would still be looking for Jerusalem. The main exception is from Antiochos' attempts to establish a cult of Zeus in Jerusalem as he was doing all across the empire to try and cement it.

This, as we know (at least from a modern viewpoint) is not cool. I, however, understand why Antiochos would do such a thing and why it made sense to him. Every fucking religion has a sky-father archetype. Syncretism was so popular back in the day that it made sense to extend a cult of Zeus across the empire for unity. We now know that it isn't always so simple and so banning the Jewish religion (something Antiochos IV only really did in Jerusalem itself) didn't go over so well. Lesson learned: forcing religion down someone's throat is a faux pas.

So what did the Jews do once they gained their freedom? The same damn thing! Their government was corrupt and as they expanded they forced conversions as well as the occasional massacre. That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

So yeah, maybe it isn't PC to claim that a group of people fighting for religious freedom is far from heroic. But hey, that would be ignoring the ugly side of history. And as to my abrasiveness when this initially came up, why wouldn't it be? I, for one, am tired of seeing this topic and about the only thing that hasn't come up has been a request for Jews in lorica segmentata.

So, conclusion:
Antiochos IV's reaction to a revolting populace was no different from what anyone else's response would have been until he banned the religion (the question is, how many would then level the same critique against the Romans and their response to the druids?).

The Maccabees do not have the making of a heroic faction. The initiated a revolt and did it with brutality, and upon getting independence, they did the same damn thing they were fighting against.

[Dutchhoplite]

If you read German P.F. Mittag wrote a very interesting book about Antiochos IV:

Antiochos IV. Epiphanes, Eine politische Biographie.

He's portrayed as a capable and efficient ruler and not as the tyrant in the books of Maccabees or the raving madman he's in Polybius.

[Moros]

Its the Witham Sheild, a celtic shield in the British Museum, think they found it near Lincoln.

That's what I tought, a british shield. That doesn't belong here at all!?

[Watchman]

Unless I'm mistaken he just gave it as an example of what a bronze facing for a thureos-type shield would look like - "bronze coated like the following:", right ?

[Moros]

Gah! I hope I'm reading my course books better than .org posts. It's all the fault of the bloody exams.

[Sarkiss]

And, honestly, the Jews should be lucky that they didn't revolt when Alexander was around, because if they did we would still be looking for Jerusalem.

good one Abou

So what did the Jews do once they gained their freedom? The same damn thing! Their government was corrupt and as they expanded they forced conversions as well as the occasional massacre. That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

sounds like Chechnya during short period of her "independence"

[Cute Wolf]

Soory for a long time, but now (after causing an Irreversible CTD, and ends up reinstalling EB - BI), now I can correctly alter some of those "Unused" soldiers on EB to judean one...

1st soldiers: Iudsioi Ekatontamachoi (Forgive my Mispelling in the screenshot) -> actually redescribed Dubosaverlavisca... I made them recruitable in the Jewish temple...


2nd soldiers, u can Guess... Zealots!!!, using Ordhmalica, 2 Hp, Berserker, and frightening to all, Just trying to experiments with those "Berserk-able" general unit, or should I use Late Pontos (Who actually downgrade rather than general_unit_upgrade) (Rename them Iudaioi Strategoi)


As u can see I actually ends up modding Casse as Iudaioi... and still in progress... My attempt for Epeirotes just give an unrepairable CTD, even after I revert to the original files...

Anyone had a clue to add Horde units? -> Perhaps I will use Goidilic units to suit them, and maybe Yuezhi one... My attempt to add "Horde_Unit with some Goidilic levies ends up with CTD... (also mod their descr_sm_factions, but failed... what more text files should I mod?

[GMT]

Judean hammer units?? I see you're really going for historical accuracy here ...

[Cute Wolf]

Eng... let me explain... The Hammer... as u can read in their description is: (in my export_unit)

{goidilic_infantry_ordmhornaght} Zealots (Jewish Fanatics)

{goidilic_infantry_ordmhornaght_descr}
Elite\nHardy\nExpert at Hiding in Forests\n\nZealots are the most frightening units in Judean arsenal, these fanatics are armed with simple smith's hammers, and best unleashed into enemy formation, ripping them apart. They only carry the most rudimentary form of armour, and their hammers are most likely construction tools, but their religious fanaticism is their forte, and they are reliable against most kind of units, capable to turn the tide of battle relatively easily... Given their lack of "True" weaponary, these men armed themself with anything available for them, and a mason's hammer is a really good choice for tackling heavily armoured opponents. According to Josephus, these men will carry everything they can found to effectively kill the heavily armoured Hellenic soldiers, and construction tools, such as pickaxe and hammers are among their most common weaponary.

{goidilic_infantry_ordmhornaght_descr_short}
Zealots are the most frightening units in Judean arsenal, these fanatics are armed with simple smith's hammers, and best unleashed into enemy formation, ripping them apart.

That should easily explain them

[Watchman]

Just FYI, but that big clunker is in no way a "simple smith's hammer"... for starters, those tended to be one-hand affairs.

[Tellos Athenaios]

And one would imagine that the big hammers were not at all inexpensive: for starters making something (e.g. the stick and mounting construction) that will actually survive the weight and momentum of the hammer head itself would involve a fair bit of skill too.

[Cute Wolf]

I couldn't find any EB unit that use one handed hammer, or another simple tools rather than Ordhmalicca, and luckily, they are far - far away in the Goidilic line....

Now let's pretend those hammers... are cheap.... used as a tool to smash walls anyway...

[Meneldil]

Wow, awesome. This Maccabean faction is almost better than the good old Bartix.

[Bucefalo]

Why don´t you just reduce the size of the hammer in milkshape? and then make the unit have an one hand animation. You could even give that hammer to another unit which had more of a middle eastern style.

That is if you know how to do it...

I think that if you are not going to do any of that your mod would be more realistic by just using eastern unit with different reskin or even simply different names.
Just my two cents.

[Dutchhoplite]