Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church

[Samurai Waki]

This wasn't what the Pro Life Lobby wants, they want to end abortions, especially late term abortions. What this man is, is a cold blooded killer, not a representative for what Pro Lifers want. Of course he will be condemned, and will serve the rest of his days behind a steel curtain. He will never be the martyr, he thinks he is.

[Mooks]

This wasn't what the Pro Life Lobby wants, they want to end abortions, especially late term abortions. What this man is, is a cold blooded killer, not a representative for what Pro Lifers want. Of course he will be condemned, and will serve the rest of his days behind a steel curtain. He will never be the martyr, he thinks he is.

Meh, iv heard from ex-brainwashed women that used to be part of the pro-life movement the exact opposite, one a certain "Sciwoman" over at Richardawkins.net and another a neighbor . They can tell some heavy stories that went on when they were screaming and harassing women going to the abortion clinics. I got no doubt in my mind that "mainstream" pro-lifers are praising this terrorist behind closed doors.

Iv heard from other forums that the doctor that got assassinated only performed on 3rd trimester babies when it was apparent they would have severe birth defects, anyone else have information on this?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I got no doubt in my mind that "mainstream" pro-lifers are praising this terrorist behind closed doors.

Alright, so amount of people who know nothing about the pro-life movement in this thread tallies at: 1. I'll keep a running total, don't worry.

[Lemur]

Well, it certainly sounds as though a measurable percentage of people opting for late-term abortions are folks with severely damaged babies. Examples:

My wife and I are/were staunch choice advocates; we'd both done our share of marching on Washington for the cause. Actually enduring the process gave us a much more nuanced opinion about abortion.

For us, it was Trisomy 21 -- Down Syndrome. The test came after my wife awoke one night in a pool of blood screaming and thinking she'd suffered a miscarriage. After she ran to the toilet, it fell upon me to call her doctor and then scoop out the remains--that actually turned out to be huge clots--and take them to the doctor the next day. The geneticist said that because of all the bleeding and other complications there was almost no chance the fetus would make it to 20 weeks let alone full term.

My wife says one of my finest moments as her husband came when I somehow made her laugh while she awaited the abortion. My wife doesn't talk about her feelings of the abortion and the "failed" pregnancy. But we've been together for more than a decade and I know she will always be crushed by it. I know we made the right decision for us but it still hurts badly. This was the son we would never have.

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My wife and I spent a week in Dr. Tiller's care after we learned our 21 week fetus had a severe defect incompatible with life. The laws in our state prevented us from ending the pregnancy there, and Dr. Tiller was one of maybe three choices in the whole nation at that gestational age. My wife just called with the news of his murder, weeping. I can't really come up with some profound political statement just now, so let me just list some memories of Dr. Tiller.

I remember him firmly stating that he regarded the abortion debate in the US to be about the control of women's sexuality and reproduction.

I remember he spent over six hours in one-on-one care with my wife when there was concern she had an infection. We're talking about a physician here. Six hours.

He told the story of his previous shooting, where a woman shot him twice in both arms as he drove out of his clinic. At first he wanted to run her down with his Jeep, but then he thought "she shot you already George, she'll do it again!"

I remember being puzzled about a T-shirt he was wearing, which said "Happy Birthday Jennifer from team Tiller!" or something similar. Turns out it comemmorated the birthday of a fifteen year old girl who was raped, became pregnant, and came to Tiller for an abortion. As luck would have it, she was in the clinic the same week as her birthday. So the clinic threw her a party.

The walls of the clinic reception and waiting room are literally covered with letters from patients thanking him. Some were heartbreaking - obviously young and/or poorly educated people thanking Dr. Tiller for being there when they had no other options, explaining their family, church etc. had abandoned them.

I remember my wife, foggy with sedation after the final procedure, being helped from the exam table. He had her sit up and put her arms around his neck, and then he lifted her into a wheelchair. "You give good hugs" she whispered. He paused just for a moment. "You're just fine," he told her.

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My brother and his wife received a diagnosis at the beginning of the second trimester's ultrasound that their child had anencephaly - a condition where the fetus' skull does not completely close and the brain forms partially outside the skull. It is a neural tube defect, similar to spina bifida, but it happens higher up on the body. They were told the child would die before, or shortly after, birth. There was no doubt about the diagnosis. My brother and his wife were encouraged by their doctor to go to Kansas for an abortion, the closest place where they could obtain one in the second trimester.

It was an agonizing decision, but they chose not to have the abortion for religious reasons. The pregnancy went to term and the baby lived for several weeks. She was surrounded by love for the brief time she was here.

I wish I could say unequivocally that they made the right decision, but the long-term effects on my sister-in-law's mental well-being have been serious. She is very much changed from the person that she was before.

Imagine what it is like to walk around in your third trimester, obviously pregnant, while well-meaning people ask you about this baby that you don't expect to be taking home from the hospital. Innocuous comments become incredibly hurtful in this context. Then imagine the baby survives and days later you take home this child who will die. In case you might relax and pretend for a little while that everything is okay, a hospice nurse comes to your house every couple of days and reminds you the signs and symptoms of death. Every time you open the refrigerator you see the narcotics you've been given to ease the baby's suffering once things get really bad.

Eventually, this baby dies a grueling death in your arms and you go home to an empty house. You want another baby, but are paralyzed by the thought of having another child with the same condition, yet you desperately want a child that is related to the child you lost. You find yourself unable to conceive and resentful of those who have many healthy children so easily. The infertility takes its toll on your marriage. The suffering and injustice takes its toll on your faith.

I often wonder what would have happened if they had the abortion. I'm not sure my sister-in-law could have lived with that decision, but at least she was given the gift of making a deliberate choice and this did make a difference in how my brother and his wife perceived their circumstances. How do people respond when they feel trapped?

I agree with those who believe abortion is a selfish choice, but in some cases the cost to the self is too high and the benefit to the other is too hard to determine. I'm afraid that the murder of Dr. Tiller will hasten the decline in doctors willing to do this work and deny desperate people of options.

[HoreTore]

Well, it certainly sounds as though a measurable percentage of people opting for late-term abortions are folks with severely damaged babies.

Is there anyone left who doesn't know this?

Early abortion is the "I can't have a baby now!"-abortion. Late-term is the "something's 'd up" abortion.

Let's face it, late-term abortion is a needed procedure. Just as needed as the earlier version.

[Samurai Waki]

Meh, iv heard from ex-brainwashed women that used to be part of the pro-life movement the exact opposite, one a certain "Sciwoman" over at Richardawkins.net and another a neighbor . They can tell some heavy stories that went on when they were screaming and harassing women going to the abortion clinics. I got no doubt in my mind that "mainstream" pro-lifers are praising this terrorist behind closed doors.

Iv heard from other forums that the doctor that got assassinated only performed on 3rd trimester babies when it was apparent they would have severe birth defects, anyone else have information on this?

I understand that some of the extreme elements are certainly clapping their hands. However, Leadership had better distance themselves from the extremists, make their organizations far more transparent, and had better do it quickly. In the end, little cases like these, actually make Pro Choice stronger. Which is fine.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The man was sick. Unfortunately he lived to destroy life. What do you do with monsters like that when the state refuses to lock them up?

I'll pray for him, but is name will be at the end of the list of the 60,000 infants he has killed, so it may take a while.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This man did not deserve to die, no one does. To suggest otherwise is to miss the point of Christianity as a religion. This man was not a murderer, he was a doctor; he no doubt thought he was helping people by offering this service, aliviating suffering and making lives better. The fact that he was killing upborn children is itself hgorrific, but it says more about American society than this one man.

I see no evidence he was anything other than normal and well adjusted, no doubt he also had a support staff and family and friends who thought his job was acceptable, I doubt he enjoyed parts of it very much. The fact that he felt this particular evil was necessary is truly dreadful, but those condemning him here should examine the world around them and ask how he was brought to this state.

As to those Christians condemning him here, I say two things: "Love the sinner, hate the sin" and remember that Jesus went to the prostitutes, thieves and tax collectors, I'm sure he had dinner with a Greek doctor who performed abortions as well.

This man is dead, he and his family deserve compassion, sympathy, protection, forgiveness and love; not hate and recrimination.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I see no evidence he was anything other than normal and well adjusted, no doubt he also had a support staff and family and friends who thought his job was acceptable, I doubt he enjoyed parts of it very much.

Take this link: www.drtiller.com/remembrance.html

and put it in to google. Then, Cache the page and look at what this "clinic" used to promote. They would photograph dead babies as a part of their "services". They would perform baptisms of the babies after death. Does that sound normal to you?

The fact remains that the man made millions killing tens of thousands of pre-born infants. He was also one of 3 doctors in the US who performed the most blatantly outrageous forms of infanticide that the law is still gray on. The media didn't need to take a moment of silence for Mengele. Their rememberances betray their much denied bias. The sad thing is that this barbarism hasn't been dealt with in the 21st century.

Every human has elements of humanity in them. It should be no suprise when even the worst of them have loving families. Evil is the sum of the acts that you take in life. By reasonable standards this man was human being who commited a myriad of crimes agaisnt the most innocent among his own people.

[Lemur]

They would photograph dead babies as a part of their "services". They would perform baptisms of the babies after death. Does that sound normal to you?

This is the second time that you're brought baptism up [edit, my bad, I see it was Xiahou who jumped on this first]. I can very easily imagine a situation where a couple terminates a non-viable fetus and still wants the blessing of baptism for their child.

Before we started successfully spawning, my wife and I went through a miscarriage at three months. Let me assure you, just because I never met that child doesn't mean I don't love it have tender feelings. Sorry, but your emphasis on services that might help a grieving couple don't wash, and they smell of unthinking hype. Whether it's a miscarriage or an abortion, losing a baby hurts. A record of baptism and a picture might help a hurting mother and father get through what must be a traumatic experience.

Some (many?) abortions are due to non-viable fetuses. Not everyone is using abortion as birth control. Consider this before you fire your next fusillade.

-edit-

Here's the text you're referring to:

Many patients request a remembrance of their baby to take home with them. The following lists items and services that some of our previous patients have found helpful in their emotional recovery. Everyone approaches this experience with their own unique emotional, spiritual, and cultural background. There is not right way or wrong way, just "your way". Once the process of healing has begun, you may want to consider a token of the precious time you and your baby had together. All of these features of our program will be discusssed with you while you are with us:

• Viewing your baby after delivery
• Holding your baby after delivery
• Photographs of your baby
• Baptism of your baby, with or without a certificate
• Footprints and handprints of your baby
• Certificate of premature miscarriage
• Cremation
• An urn for ashes
• Arrangement of burial in either Wichita or your home state
• Arrangement of amniocentesis/autopsy
• Medical photographsand x-rays for your health care professional

Grief is a very complex emotion which is expressed in many different ways. We will attempt to accommodate your individual requests to the very best of our abilities.

This does not sound ghoulish to me, having lost a child to miscarriage. This looks like an attempt to help people deal with grief. Although I oppose late-term abortions, I don't appreciate your attempt to score theatrical points from what appears to be a well-meaning attempt to let parents connect with the child they will never know.

[Lemur]

What do you do with monsters like that when the state refuses to lock them up?

The state "refuses" to punish the doctor because of the law. We should work on changing that law, not on vilifying and murdering the people who perform procedures that we find abhorrent.

I have to tell you, in cases where the baby is found to have a defect that guarantees a painful, prolonged and expensive death, I don't know what's right. I just read an account of a child who was brought to term who required three (three!) heart surgeries before suffering an inevitable death at one week of age. This child's entire existence was open-chest surgery and pain.

I wouldn't inflict that on my dog, much less my child.

I guess if I had to make that call, I'd support my wife in either an abortion or a DNR with the hospital (assuming they'd allow it). And plenty of narcotics for my baby, to send him or her out on a sea of morphine.

Non-viable fetuses are what make me stumble in my opposition to late-term abortions. Thoughts?