Yet another Sweboz question!

**Duguntz** · 06-10-2009, 20:09

Yeah, that't also true, but as there's time between Raids, and even more time laps between invasion, the population increase, thus allowing for a rotation of men... (anyway, in germanic society, every men of age were requiered to fight wether ordered by their jarl! so even if it were the same men every year (as i have a ''season for raiding'') well, it's their lots in life and those who comeback alive bring to their family glory and plunder!

**Macilrille** · 06-10-2009, 20:35

Dugunz, I am sorry to disagree, but that view is somewhat antequated and romantic. I have no time to elaborate, but suffice it to say that at the start of the EB Timeframe a warrior aristocracy was already emerging.

Off to Iceland tomorrow :-D

**Watchman** · 06-10-2009, 20:57

Also it can be somewhat difficult to get armed and pugnacious peasant-soldiers to go on a campaign or even raid if they don't like the idea - there being an obvious hurdle in *forcing* them. OTOH, from what I know of it your average tribesman wasn't too opposed to the idea... "also soldiers want loot and phat lewts", as it were. Nevermind now any personal or communal grudges and the rest of the junk tribal warriors were motivated by.

**Duguntz** · 06-11-2009, 06:00

Originally Posted by Macilrille

Dugunz, I am sorry to disagree, but that view is somewhat antequated and romantic. I have no time to elaborate, but suffice it to say that at the start of the EB Timeframe a warrior aristocracy was already emerging.

Off to Iceland tomorrow :-D

Hmmm, you missed my point here! Here, yeah, it's true that every man of age were more or less ALSO the warriors, of their village! even with an warrior class emerging. then, for the rest, I wasn't talking about historical fact, but as my way of roleplaying!

cheers all!!!

**Ca Putt** · 06-11-2009, 12:54

I'd personally give Juguntiz a special standing as, especially the chatti ones, are eager to kill thier first enemy and get their Real spear and thus becoming "proven ones" so Imo most realisitc would be to not disband them until they get a chevron from fighting rather than temples and game fields. after that you can train them again as Dugunthiz. Levy spears and Skutjanz are levied troops or troops that just fight to protect house and wife.they have a regular job in the community and are just marginally fond of fighting(except maybe a little raid to gain some gold and glory once in a while ;) )

if you want a 3 level unit you could add the swordsmen as they not only killed a man in battle but have had the opportunity to kill a man armed with a sword(which are far more plentiful gaul than in the village next door). so you could replace Dugunthiz who earned a chevron in combat with gauls(no spearmen do not count) or romans with Herunautoz.

**Cyclops** · 06-12-2009, 07:49

Originally Posted by Ca Putt

I'd personally give Juguntiz a special standing...

Thats a difficult thing to represent, age cohorts (as opposed to demographic cohorts) progressing their status in society in wealth and obligations.

There's a book I've just seen on "Sex and War" which links demograhy to violence (organsied and disorganised): if you have a bunch of boys coming through you're more likely to have a war (bad news for Iran, and lots of Africa).

I guess there's a model for manpower pools in Victoria, but how complex would this have to be to include maturing cohorts, age-weighted for aggression?

**Ca Putt** · 06-12-2009, 18:55

well just because the boys are not in your Army it doesn't mean they don't exist and I'm pretty sure the Germanic society has much less problems with violent youngsters than a Hellenic or roman society which featured gangs of joyriding sons of senators who burn down Barns :D

furthermore The Jugunthiz were not only defined by age. It was possible that some guys just continued to fight among the Jugunthiz with well above 20 years. (for Chatti) This could be either "achieved" by failing to kill a man in combat or by just being utterly fond of fighting like a hairy barbarian :D.
Afterall I gave a practical solution for the issue. the remaining Upkeep cost are not even to unrealistic as Germanic warriors are not exactly as productive as Kleucheroi ^^ at least Tacitus says so

oh but I have to agree with you on the crime issue. [I was about to turn this into a discussion about abortion but I decided It's best to give that a miss^^]

**Maion Maroneios** · 06-14-2009, 22:19

Seems this has grown into quite a thread. Lots of Philogermanoi here, it seems. No problems there, I am part-Germanos myself too. So things are good. I guess

Maion