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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerWizard View Post
    Certainly. Especially people who mix up socialism with fascism.
    I take you didn't bother looking then.

    An uncomfortable truth. Facism is the bastard child of the left. They are still left wing, look at the social policies. About as far away from the free arket as you could get.

    Unlike socialist they only pick on certain sections of society, not all sections. Equally of course.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    An uncomfortable truth. Facism is the bastard child of the left. They are still left wing, look at the social policies. About as far away from the free arket as you could get.
    So what you mean is that Fascism is Keynesian. Keynesianism is not Socialism by any means - Socialism is the centralisation of the modes of production in the hands of the working class. Fascists believed in state intervention for the benefit of Corporations - every Fascist regime in history has had Corporatist structures within it.

    Further, Socialism is built around the use of trade unions - Fascism had always destroyed unions and replaced them with state-run organisations.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    He is probably in the opinion Stalin is actually a Communist as depicted in the Communist Manifesto.

    In short - He isn't.
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    He is probably in the opinion Stalin is actually a Communist as depicted in the Communist Manifesto.

    In short - He isn't.
    The same argument I've been making for at least 6 months in the Backroom. I'll get sick of repeating myself one day.
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    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    He is probably in the opinion Stalin is actually a Communist as depicted in the Communist Manifesto.

    In short - He isn't.
    You think Stalin is a fascist? I would remind you, before you answer, that there is more than one variant of communism.

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    You think Stalin is a fascist? I would remind you, before you answer, that there is more than one variant of communism.
    Stalin was a Stalinist. Funny how these terms already exist, init?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Stalin was a Stalinist. Funny how these terms already exist, init?
    And what is Stalinism? A variant of communism (or an interpretation of it, etc). I don't see your point with defining Stalin as Stalinist though. Is Marxism not a form of communism because it is Marxism?

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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    And what is Stalinism? A variant of communism (or an interpretation of it, etc). I don't see your point with defining Stalin as Stalinist though. Is Marxism not a form of communism because it is Marxism?
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Hey guys. Try typng Benito into google. He was the author of the fascists after all. It's amazing how much you pick up from not reading history, isn't it?
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Hey guys. Try typng Benito into google. He was the author of the fascists after all. It's amazing how much you pick up from not reading history, isn't it?
    Mussolini was indeed a former Socialist, however the nationalistic bastardisation he offered was thoroughly unsocialist. And to show I do know what I'm talking about I'm actually going to quote from *shock and horror* an historian. This is from Robert Paxton in "The Anatomy of Fascism", one of the most complete studies of the formation and policies of Fascism.

    pp. 145-147:
    In no domain did the proposals of early fascism differ more from what fascist regimes did in practice than in economc policy. This was the area where both fascist leaders conceded the most to their conervatiuve allies.
    [...]
    Fascism was not the first choice of most businessmen, but most of them preferred it to the alternatives that seemed likely in the special conditions of 1922 and 1933 - socialism or a dysfunctional market system. [...] Mussolini's famous corporatist economic organization, in particular, was run in practice by leading businessmen."

    Peter Hayes puts it succinctly: the Nazi regime and business had "converging by not identical interests." Areas of agreement included disciplining workers, lucrative armaments contrats, and job-creation stimuli. Important areas of conflict involved government economic controls, limits on trade and the high cost of autarky
    [...]
    Fascists had to do something about the welfare state. In Germany, the welfare experiments of the Weimar Republic had proved too expensive after the Depression struck in 1929. The Nazis trimmed them and perverted them by racial forms of exclusion. But neither fascist reime tried to dismantle the welfare state (as mere reactionaries might have done).
    I can't be bothered to type any more right now, but rest assured I know what I am talking about and the facts are on my side.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  11. #11

    Post Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    I take you didn't bother looking then.

    An uncomfortable truth. Facism is the bastard child of the left. They are still left wing, look at the social policies. About as far away from the free arket as you could get.

    Unlike socialist they only pick on certain sections of society, not all sections. Equally of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerWizard View Post
    To claim who's Fascist and who's not you have to
    1./ define the characteristics of Fascism
    2./ assign those characteristics to said person / movement / party with an utmost certainty that leaves no doubt it is a coincidence and not similarity

    I'd bet 1,000 USD that no one in this thread will ever tackle these tasks.
    I foretold it in the first reply, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito View Post
    Violence or the threat of violence is a fascist tactic.
    Aw'some, so the people who revolted in France in 1789 against tyranny were fascists.
    Last edited by PowerWizard; 06-10-2009 at 01:17.
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  12. #12
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    That's the best you can do? I told you so!

    Very sad.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  13. #13
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Cool Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerWizard View Post
    Aw'some, so the people who revolted in France in 1789 against tyranny were fascists.
    Well how many of them were then executed by their fellow revoltees?

    Its not like saying one is revolting for democracy makes one not a facist. Heck the most famous facists have quite happily played the democratic game.
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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerWizard View Post
    I foretold it in the first reply, lol.



    Aw'some, so the people who revolted in France in 1789 against tyranny were fascists.
    I know it can be a challenge, but try to stay on topic here. You are implying it is acceptable for those who are politically opposed to the BNP to use violence and the threat of violence to deny them the right to express their views. Do you feel the BNP has that same right to violently suppress the views of others?
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Thanks for that CA. It doesn't matter how many apologists you roll out though does it? The founder of fascism was a socialist.

    You can dress it up like a christmas tree on the 24th december but that fact just wont go away will it?

    Put it this way sunshine, he was hardly a tory, was he?
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  16. #16
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Thanks for that CA. It doesn't matter how many apologists you roll out though does it? The founder of fascism was a socialist.
    It is clear you have no interest in a serious argument, nor a leg to stand on.
    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Put it this way sunshine, he was hardly a tory, was he?
    Neo-Liberal economics hadn't been invented yet, so no, no he wasn't. Was he a Socialist? No. His actions prove that.
    Last edited by CountArach; 06-10-2009 at 01:47.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  17. #17

    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    The founder of fascism was a socialist.
    No he wasn't , the founder of fascism was someone who had rejected socialism.
    There ya go. Violence or the threat of violence is a fascist tactic.
    Jesus was a fascist then.

  18. #18
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    For a proper assault you need an assault rifle, not eggs.
    It is however not nice to waste eggs like that while children in africa are hungry...


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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Talking Re : When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Why did the protesters only throw one egg?

    ...because one egg's un œuf!



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    Post Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito View Post
    I know it can be a challenge, but try to stay on topic here. You are implying it is acceptable for those who are politically opposed to the BNP to use violence and the threat of violence to deny them the right to express their views. Do you feel the BNP has that same right to violently suppress the views of others?
    No, you are not going to escape from explaining your statement: "There ya go. Violence or the threat of violence is a fascist tactic." I pointed out a random example that counters the validity of your statement. But I could point out a thousand other random examples from history where violence or the threat of violence was used in politics. Sure, you haven't read The Prince, do you? Are you implying Machiavelli was the ideologue of fascism? Try to realize your statement was false, and violence or threat of violence existed long before Fascism.

    And if egg throwing is violence, pushing a cake in someone's face is attempted murder. I'm not saying it's a good thing, actually it's quite ridiculous.
    Last edited by PowerWizard; 06-10-2009 at 01:54.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerWizard View Post
    And if egg throwing is violence, pushing a cake in someone's face is attempted murder.
    Assault - a crime of violence against a person.
    Violence - the expression of physical force against self or other.

    Definitions from Wiki.

    Egg throwing is, if not violence, completely unacceptable. Thing is though, it is violence. Pushing a cake into the face of an individual is also violence, but an egg is far more likely to cause physical harm.

  22. #22
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Assault - a crime of violence against a person.
    Violence - the expression of physical force against self or other.

    Definitions from Wiki.

    Egg throwing is, if not violence, completely unacceptable. Thing is though, it is violence. Pushing a cake into the face of an individual is also violence, but an egg is far more likely to cause physical harm.
    Oh come on. Like you didn't applaud it when one of brown's ministers(name escapes me atm) got green sauce all over his face.

    Throwing an egg is the same. Ie., not violence. It won't cause physical harm, it won't make anyone intimidated.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  23. #23
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    intimidating it is though, it means you are on their list and that your life is in danger.

  24. #24
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Oh come on. Like you didn't applaud it when one of brown's ministers(name escapes me atm) got green sauce all over his face.
    I didn't hear about it in the first place, but no, I wouldn't applaud it. Every democratically elected minister, MP, or MEP deserves a certain amount of respect, no matter how distasteful I find their views.

    Do you really think I would defend the BNP over Labour?

  25. #25
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Ah, the double standard and obfuscation on the actual topic at hand in action. There is no debate here, only inane hairsplitting on the real definition of "is". Time for a beer and less trivial pursuits.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

  26. #26

    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    The protesters were rubbish . They should have thrown a curry at him after he had given his speech, after all curry is the British national dish

  27. #27
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: When is a fascist not a fascist?

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerWizard
    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
    Violence or the threat of violence is a fascist tactic. Allow them their say and let the audience decide the merit of their ideology

    Aw'some, so the people who revolted in France in 1789 against tyranny were fascists.
    you are doing Hosakawa a grave dis-service by only partially quoting him.

    the free dictionary to give but one example uses this definition: "a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism"

    using the above we can determine two things:
    > you use of french revolutionaries is invalid as they were the suppressed in a non-representative system, not the dictatorial government itself.
    > the BNP seen in this light are in opposition to government and being suppressed through terror and censorship (read: eggs and biased press).
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