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Thread: Carthies in the new world?
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
Yeah, more like the Theran civilisation which was even more advanced than the Minoans. I read a book on them, an archaeological excavation on Thera, the biggest thing in archaeology for quite some time now. There is a whole entire city on Thera, rivalling Pompeii in its preservation, which was the site of the Volcano which caused its own and Minoan death BTW (as well as probably the Moses' plagues of Egypt, since the timing was almost precise).
I suggest you read about it too, as it is almost fantastical how advanced the Therans were. Most notably their plumbing. The whole city was riddled with pipes, which led to all sorts of nifty things, including showers, bath tubs, and self-flushing toilets.
The site is called Akrotiri, and I highly suggest visiting it. It it well worth one's time. As Aemilius Paulus says, the city was highly advanced for its time, including two story houses and advanced plumbing. It is very well preserved, and while visitors don't have the same freedom to walk around as they do at Pompeii, one can still get the gist of the city. Plus, Santorini is beautiful in and of itself.Yeah, more like the Theran civilisation which was even more advanced than the Minoans. I read a book on them, an archaeological excavation on Thera, the biggest thing in archaeology for quite some time now. There is a whole entire city on Thera, rivalling Pompeii in its preservation, which was the site of the Volcano which caused its own and Minoan death BTW (as well as probably the Moses' plagues of Egypt, since the timing was almost precise).
I suggest you read about it too, as it is almost fantastical how advanced the Therans were. Most notably their plumbing. The whole city was riddled with pipes, which led to all sorts of nifty things, including showers, bath tubs, and self-flushing toilets.
The island used to be a center land mass, surrounded by water, which was in turn encircled by an outer ring of land, such that it looked like a target. When the volcano (which of course was the entire island itself) exploded, half of the center section and a good portion of the outer ring slid beneath the surface of the water, so that it looks like someone took a butcher's knife and just hacked through the center of the place.
AP - perhaps you can refresh my memory: isn't Akrotiri viewed as a Minoan colony?
As to the Carthaginians in the Americas, I have to remain skeptical. It's not totally outside the realm of possibility (try to prove a negative), but it certainly seems extremely unlikely. The theory is mostly based on completely spurrious evidence such as the Bat Creek Inscription, and (if memory serves) a supposed rock carving in Brazil that is probably not a carving at all, but rather a natural formation. It's all rather dubious, at best.
Originally Posted by Cimon:
The site is called Akrotiri,
Interesting. So that is what they call it in vernacular? That is not what they called it during the excavation. I suppose the government gave it that name?The site is called Akrotiri,
The government, BTW, is a great leech and a pest for that site. After the site was excavated, they opened it to tourism, but just as Pompeii, the site is not air-conditioned and climate controlled as it should be, leading to degradation. The governments of Italy and Greece siphon millions from the site, but do not even maintain it, much less continue the digs. As we know, much of Pompeii and Akrotiri is yet to be excavated.
Not with the current lack of funding though. As the lead archaeologist of the Theran site remarked, perhaps it would be better to leave the site alone until in the future, history will perhaps be better appreciated and the site will actually be protected from the outside climate, in the contrast of today's situation.
Originally Posted by Cimon:
AP - perhaps you can refresh my memory: isn't Akrotiri viewed as a Minoan colony?
Not at all. Independent civilisation according to the both lead excavationists. Two generations of excavations there were BTW. First a Greek, and then an Anglo-Saxon.AP - perhaps you can refresh my memory: isn't Akrotiri viewed as a Minoan colony?
Originally Posted by Cimon:
As to the Carthaginians in the Americas, I have to remain sceptical. It's not totally outside the realm of possibility (try to prove a negative), but it certainly seems extremely unlikely. The theory is mostly based on completely spurrious evidence such as the Bat Creek Inscription, and (if memory serves) a supposed rock carving in Brazil that is probably not a carving at all, but rather a natural formation. It's all rather dubious, at best.
Yeah, same here. I mean, I want to believe the Phoenicians did it, but as a natural sceptic, cynic, and a pessimist, I doubt it. The sensationalist nature of those discoveries does not help.As to the Carthaginians in the Americas, I have to remain sceptical. It's not totally outside the realm of possibility (try to prove a negative), but it certainly seems extremely unlikely. The theory is mostly based on completely spurrious evidence such as the Bat Creek Inscription, and (if memory serves) a supposed rock carving in Brazil that is probably not a carving at all, but rather a natural formation. It's all rather dubious, at best.
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
Interesting. So that is what they call it in vernacular? That is not what they called it during the excavation. I suppose the government gave it that name?
The government, BTW, is a great leech and a pest for that site. After the site was excavated, they opened it to tourism, but just as Pompeii, the site is not air-conditioned and climate controlled as it should be, leading to degradation. The governments of Italy and Greece siphon millions from the site, but do not even maintain it, much less continue the digs. As we know, much of Pompeii and Akrotiri is yet to be excavated.
Not with the current lack of funding though. As the lead archeologist of the Theran site remarked, perhaps it would be better to leave the site alon until in the future, history will perhaps be better appreciated and the site will actually be protected from the outside cliamte, in the contrast of today's situation.
No idea if the government gave that name or where it comes from. The only way I know that name is that I went there in 1999 as one leg of a travel-study program through college, and the Professor on my trip, Mortimer Chambers, (who was really great and I think fairly well known, although I am not an academic, so I'm not sure) called it Akrotiri. Now, he may have just been calling us that because we were a bunch of undergraduate students, and that's the easiest thing to call it, or perhaps there's some subset of academics that ascribe to calling it that. I have no idea. That's what he called it for us, though, so that's what I call it.Interesting. So that is what they call it in vernacular? That is not what they called it during the excavation. I suppose the government gave it that name?
The government, BTW, is a great leech and a pest for that site. After the site was excavated, they opened it to tourism, but just as Pompeii, the site is not air-conditioned and climate controlled as it should be, leading to degradation. The governments of Italy and Greece siphon millions from the site, but do not even maintain it, much less continue the digs. As we know, much of Pompeii and Akrotiri is yet to be excavated.
Not with the current lack of funding though. As the lead archeologist of the Theran site remarked, perhaps it would be better to leave the site alon until in the future, history will perhaps be better appreciated and the site will actually be protected from the outside cliamte, in the contrast of today's situation.
He really took us around the site and showed some things to us, and there was not a single other visitor there at the time. All the other tourists on the island were in the town of Phira, as near as I can figure. There were a few archaeologists there that he introduced us to, although the names escape me at this point. He did, however, note that the site was open-air (although covered), but that it really shoudl be better taken care of.
Originally Posted by Aemelius Paulus:
Not at all. Independent civilisation according to the both lead excavationists. Two generations of excavations there were BTW. First a Greek, and then an Anglo-Saxon.
Thanks for the clearup. Appreciate it.Not at all. Independent civilisation according to the both lead excavationists. Two generations of excavations there were BTW. First a Greek, and then an Anglo-Saxon.
hmmmm......
this seems very interesting. however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here. i mean, unless there's any physical evidence, than its hard to think they could have ever visited.
i am not saying they didn't; i would be thrilled to hear that and get a mod where i can attack the incas with carthaginian and not be weird. i would just love to hear this is true, and i want to believe it, but there seem to be too many variables against it, plus the fact that no carthaginian artifacts have been found there, that its hard to.
this seems very interesting. however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here. i mean, unless there's any physical evidence, than its hard to think they could have ever visited.
i am not saying they didn't; i would be thrilled to hear that and get a mod where i can attack the incas with carthaginian and not be weird. i would just love to hear this is true, and i want to believe it, but there seem to be too many variables against it, plus the fact that no carthaginian artifacts have been found there, that its hard to.
Originally Posted by John-117:
however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here
May I ask you why?however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
May I ask you why?
well, its quite obvious; someone on the ship had to be carrying some sort of carthaginian coin. especially if it was a merchant ship as suggested by some.May I ask you why?
Originally Posted by John-117:
hmmmm......
this seems very interesting. however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here.
I fail to see how. If it is an accident like it would have to be, why would a ship, bound for the south of africa, be carrying random coins. More likely to have supplies and goods to accomadate a long journey. hmmmm......
this seems very interesting. however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here.
A hypothesis I read stated that it was possible if atlantis still existed, it could have travaled from africa and coast hugged atlantis and then arrived in south america.
Originally Posted by Ghaust the Moor:
A hypothesis I read stated that it was possible if atlantis still existed, it could have travaled from africa and coast hugged atlantis and then arrived in south america.
I would not even call that a hypothesis. Why did you mention it? I hope it was just for the lulz, because honestly, how the heck could you have an entire continent we do not know of?? A hypothesis I read stated that it was possible if atlantis still existed, it could have travaled from africa and coast hugged atlantis and then arrived in south america.
If geologists today can tell what continents looked back in the Silurian, then why can they not do the same for something that happened 2,500 years ago? In any case, there are at least more than a million reasons why Atlantis in the middl eof Atlantic is false, and I do believe we all know why.
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus:
I would not even call that a hypothesis. Why did you mention it? I hope it was just for the lulz, because honestly, how the heck could you have an entire continent we do not know of??
Obviously Atlantis existed. In Plato's writings, apparently he says that it sunk. However, part of it didn't, and the Atlantis successor, Bartix continued their work of world domination. Where the hell did you think Bartix came from anyway... <__<'I would not even call that a hypothesis. Why did you mention it? I hope it was just for the lulz, because honestly, how the heck could you have an entire continent we do not know of??
But WHEN they really reach that by themself... wait.. these paranormal links are unrealible aren't you? At least the romans will try to mount an expedition to conquer america, and now there was no USA, instead of Senatus Populus Que Americus (no, Nova Romanus) // SPQNR... because britain is still a place filled with headhurlers and woad warriors...
Also, looking at the picture of the coin shows where they may have landed. IMOO it looks like they landed in what is now labrador. Compare the coastline of north america and the coin.
Also, here is a chart of currents that I have drawn a scenario on.
TO
1. An flotilla of exploration vessels from Carthage sets sail for southern africa.
2. The cross through the straits of Gibraltar
3. A storm has begun to batter the Carthaginian flotilla.
4. The storm disables the carthaginian ships and they begin drift in the powerful current.
5A. They have been drifting for a week or two now.
5B. The current has slung shot them into a lateral drift parralel to the north american coast.
6. They are then oaring north against the current as land is in sight.
7. The land in canada!!!
From
1.The set sail from canada.
2. Light shear currents carry the ship south along the coast
3. Current turns and carries the ship back towards europe.
4. Currents carry ships back towards iberia
5. The straits of gibralter are within sight.
6. They return towards the mediterranean.
7. They reach carthage.
Also, here is a chart of currents that I have drawn a scenario on.
TO
1. An flotilla of exploration vessels from Carthage sets sail for southern africa.
2. The cross through the straits of Gibraltar
3. A storm has begun to batter the Carthaginian flotilla.
4. The storm disables the carthaginian ships and they begin drift in the powerful current.
5A. They have been drifting for a week or two now.
5B. The current has slung shot them into a lateral drift parralel to the north american coast.
6. They are then oaring north against the current as land is in sight.
7. The land in canada!!!
From
1.The set sail from canada.
2. Light shear currents carry the ship south along the coast
3. Current turns and carries the ship back towards europe.
4. Currents carry ships back towards iberia
5. The straits of gibralter are within sight.
6. They return towards the mediterranean.
7. They reach carthage.
Originally Posted by Ghaust the Moor:
Also, here is a chart of currents that I have drawn a scenario on.
Don't the currents change over time (or is that a current chart from ancient times?)Also, here is a chart of currents that I have drawn a scenario on.
I remember reading once that one of the reasons the Vikings never settled more of Canada was that the way there was blocked because the currents changed.
West Africa - South America path would had been easier and shorter for them, although I doubt that they had ever reached the "new" continent.
currents do change. I doubt the currents played in their favour, otherwise we'd have seen carthaginian trade settlements.
as for carthie coins in teh americas? they'd have brought them to show teh wealth to the new people they'd inevitably meet.
as for carthie coins in teh americas? they'd have brought them to show teh wealth to the new people they'd inevitably meet.
Originally Posted by John-117:
i am not saying they didn't; i would be thrilled to hear that and get a mod where i can attack the incas with carthaginian and not be weird.
I love how you seem more excited by the prospect of a mod for this than the historical significance of it, haha.i am not saying they didn't; i would be thrilled to hear that and get a mod where i can attack the incas with carthaginian and not be weird.
also...
Originally Posted by http://paranormal.about.com/library/.../aa080700a.htm:
California's East Bay Walls, ancient low rock walls east of San Francisco Bay, have long been a mystery. No one knows who built them or why. In 1904, Dr. John Fryer, professor of Oriental languages at U.C. Berkeley, declared: "This is undoubtedly the work of Mongolians... the Chinese would naturally wall themselves in, as they do in all of their towns in China."
Undoubtedly Dr John Fryer, undoubtedly.California's East Bay Walls, ancient low rock walls east of San Francisco Bay, have long been a mystery. No one knows who built them or why. In 1904, Dr. John Fryer, professor of Oriental languages at U.C. Berkeley, declared: "This is undoubtedly the work of Mongolians... the Chinese would naturally wall themselves in, as they do in all of their towns in China."
I bet they have reached the New World. Though I very much doubt that they:
1. Reached it on purpose.
2. Reached it alive.
1. Reached it on purpose.
2. Reached it alive.
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