Carthies in the new world?

[Aemilius Paulus]

The site is called Akrotiri,

Interesting. So that is what they call it in vernacular? That is not what they called it during the excavation. I suppose the government gave it that name?

The government, BTW, is a great leech and a pest for that site. After the site was excavated, they opened it to tourism, but just as Pompeii, the site is not air-conditioned and climate controlled as it should be, leading to degradation. The governments of Italy and Greece siphon millions from the site, but do not even maintain it, much less continue the digs. As we know, much of Pompeii and Akrotiri is yet to be excavated.

Not with the current lack of funding though. As the lead archaeologist of the Theran site remarked, perhaps it would be better to leave the site alone until in the future, history will perhaps be better appreciated and the site will actually be protected from the outside climate, in the contrast of today's situation.

AP - perhaps you can refresh my memory: isn't Akrotiri viewed as a Minoan colony?

Not at all. Independent civilisation according to the both lead excavationists. Two generations of excavations there were BTW. First a Greek, and then an Anglo-Saxon.

As to the Carthaginians in the Americas, I have to remain sceptical. It's not totally outside the realm of possibility (try to prove a negative), but it certainly seems extremely unlikely. The theory is mostly based on completely spurrious evidence such as the Bat Creek Inscription, and (if memory serves) a supposed rock carving in Brazil that is probably not a carving at all, but rather a natural formation. It's all rather dubious, at best.

Yeah, same here. I mean, I want to believe the Phoenicians did it, but as a natural sceptic, cynic, and a pessimist, I doubt it. The sensationalist nature of those discoveries does not help.

[Cimon]

Interesting. So that is what they call it in vernacular? That is not what they called it during the excavation. I suppose the government gave it that name?

The government, BTW, is a great leech and a pest for that site. After the site was excavated, they opened it to tourism, but just as Pompeii, the site is not air-conditioned and climate controlled as it should be, leading to degradation. The governments of Italy and Greece siphon millions from the site, but do not even maintain it, much less continue the digs. As we know, much of Pompeii and Akrotiri is yet to be excavated.

Not with the current lack of funding though. As the lead archeologist of the Theran site remarked, perhaps it would be better to leave the site alon until in the future, history will perhaps be better appreciated and the site will actually be protected from the outside cliamte, in the contrast of today's situation.

No idea if the government gave that name or where it comes from. The only way I know that name is that I went there in 1999 as one leg of a travel-study program through college, and the Professor on my trip, Mortimer Chambers, (who was really great and I think fairly well known, although I am not an academic, so I'm not sure) called it Akrotiri. Now, he may have just been calling us that because we were a bunch of undergraduate students, and that's the easiest thing to call it, or perhaps there's some subset of academics that ascribe to calling it that. I have no idea. That's what he called it for us, though, so that's what I call it.

He really took us around the site and showed some things to us, and there was not a single other visitor there at the time. All the other tourists on the island were in the town of Phira, as near as I can figure. There were a few archaeologists there that he introduced us to, although the names escape me at this point. He did, however, note that the site was open-air (although covered), but that it really shoudl be better taken care of.

Not at all. Independent civilisation according to the both lead excavationists. Two generations of excavations there were BTW. First a Greek, and then an Anglo-Saxon.

Thanks for the clearup. Appreciate it.

[Conradus]

Yeah, more like the Theran civilisation which was even more advanced than the Minoans. I read a book on them, an archaeological excavation on Thera, the biggest thing in archaeology for quite some time now. There is a whole entire city on Thera, rivalling Pompeii in its preservation, which was the site of the Volcano which caused its own and Minoan death BTW (as well as probably the Moses' plagues of Egypt, since the timing was almost precise).

I suggest you read about it too, as it is almost fantastical how advanced the Therans were. Most notably their plumbing. The whole city was riddled with pipes, which led to all sorts of nifty things, including showers, bath tubs, and self-flushing toilets.

Yes, Thera that was the name I was looking for, forgot it :s

Though I always thought Thera was considered as an outpost of the Minoan civilization?

Edit, I read the above, nevermind the last sentence :)

[Drewski]

That is true, but of course, his ship was built in a manner that would enable it to quite handily withstand more than just coast hugging. Caravels were the staple of the age of exploration. On the other hand, Phoenicians were the most notorious coast-huggers there could be.

They travelled more than anyone, but were just as coast-hugging as anyone else was in their days, despite their skill. They never even had the provisions for long voyages away from land. Their ships had a construction that all but made them useless in rough water. Vikings (Norse) may have built simpler ships, but yet those ships were suited for such travel, and their only weakness was the lack of storage areas, unless they were using the knorr. But knorr was a trading/transport vessel, and not as seaworthy as their trademark longboats. Hence their Island hopping - from Iceland, to Greenland, and to Newfoundland.

I could buy the Phoenicians accidentally being marooned in Brazil, but bot coming back. Just look at the map of the currents there. They all go from Liberia to the tip of Brazil, and not vice versa. Same with the winds. You would need to cross a much wider expanse of ocean for the voyage back.

Oh I agree its unlikely, but several intrepid folks (Thor Heyerdal and others) have proved similar ships capable of oceanic travel. The Phoenecian merchant ships, were actually quite a lot more sturdy than credit is often given....they were basically designed for the Med, but the Med can get quite rough at times.

Constant travel back and forth across the Atlantic? Not in EB times, we'd have some concrete evidence for it. It's too big a secret to keep hidden. But The Romantic in me, likes to believe that maybe a small fleet got lost in The Americas, and passed on their knowledge to the natives ;)

[Watchman]

Vikings (Norse) may have built simpler ships, but yet those ships were suited for such travel, and their only weakness was the lack of storage areas, unless they were using the knorr. But knorr was a trading/transport vessel, and not as seaworthy as their trademark longboats. Hence their Island hopping - from Iceland, to Greenland, and to Newfoundland.

Actually iy's exactly the other way around; the knarrs were the very seaworthy, ocean-crossing ships with good cargo capacity (ie. supply endurance - though even these only carried enough to "island-hop" the Arctic Circle); the sleek warships were specifically the ones that couldn't be counted on to withstand the crossing to Iceland...

Fact is, the Med is a placid lake compared to the Atlantic and especially northern parts thereof (and the Baltic is only marginally friendlier, far as I know). And even it has parts that are downright notorious for their ornery weather, such as the Bay of Biscay (whose weather actually partially "spills over" through the valleys of south-central France into the Gulf of Lions, which is among the most stormy parts of the Med)... The Carthies could sail to the British Isles and explore the African coastline that well specifically because their big merchant ships were among the best of their kind in the Med, and even then they had to coast-hug something fierce.

Insofar as ship design pressures went, those two seas were pretty much different worlds.

[Celtic_Punk]

That is true, but of course, his ship was built in a manner that would enable it to quite handily withstand more than just coast hugging. Caravels were the staple of the age of exploration. On the other hand, Phoenicians were the most notorious coast-huggers there could be.

They travelled more than anyone, but were just as coast-hugging as anyone else was in their days, despite their skill. They never even had the provisions for long voyages away from land. Their ships had a construction that all but made them useless in rough water. Vikings (Norse) may have built simpler ships, but yet those ships were suited for such travel, and their only weakness was the lack of storage areas, unless they were using the knorr. But knorr was a trading/transport vessel, and not as seaworthy as their trademark longboats. Hence their Island hopping - from Iceland, to Greenland, and to Newfoundland.

I could buy the Phoenicians accidentally being marooned in Brazil, but bot coming back. Just look at the map of the currents there. They all go from Liberia to the tip of Brazil, and not vice versa. Same with the winds. You would need to cross a much wider expanse of ocean for the voyage back.

They COULD have done it. The Atlantic does have many storms that would devour a carthaginian ship. However, They did have the seamanship to make a crossing(navigation by stars). The fact remains that on the return trip they'd need to go more North in order to catch the current. Which they'd know nothing about. Also by the time they'd get back to the Old world, they'd be dodging German Uboats - It would take them so long, they'd run out of supplies and probably be all dead by the time the boat got to shore... Ghostship style.

[Mediteran]

well, all this is based on a carthaginian coin.. which would mean that if they did it, they also got back.. which is highly unlikely i think

[Celtic_Punk]

which by the way... looks nothing like a bloody map. It looks more like a fault in stamping rather than an actual map. Kudo's to whomever convinced an intelligent human being otherwise. Cause it sounds like bupkiss to me. I can believe ancient sailors have at sometime or another made it to America. I doubt they made it back. They thought the end of the Earth was near the West Coast of Africa and Spain. They definitely didn't send men to what was their assured doom.

[IrishHitman]

Erm, North Atlantean and Mediterranean shipbuilding were two *very* different fields you know... and even then the Scandinavians "island-hopped" by way of Iceland and Greenland.

Like I said, they probably ran into the Azores or Madeira.

[J.R.M]

I found some crazy stuff

http://paranormal.about.com/library/.../aa080700a.htm

Is this even real or just some sensacionalist lies or dreams?

[A Very Super Market]

I would imagine that the Romans would have logged this sort of thing happening. Hellenes as well. All there is, is Atlantis, and in no way could it be described as North America.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I found some crazy stuff

http://paranormal.about.com/library/.../aa080700a.htm

Is this even real or just some sensacionalist lies or dreams?

Made up. Not possible that so much proof exists for his idea, and yet no one even considers it seriously. Not to mention, some of the stuff it mentioned were well-known hoaxes. Not a single serious historian supports such ideas. Why? For a good reason obviously. Not like it is some conspiracy here.

[Prussian to the Iron]

hmmmm......

this seems very interesting. however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here. i mean, unless there's any physical evidence, than its hard to think they could have ever visited.

i am not saying they didn't; i would be thrilled to hear that and get a mod where i can attack the incas with carthaginian and not be weird. i would just love to hear this is true, and i want to believe it, but there seem to be too many variables against it, plus the fact that no carthaginian artifacts have been found there, that its hard to.

[Aemilius Paulus]

however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here

May I ask you why?

[Ghaust the Moor]

hmmmm......

this seems very interesting. however, i would be willing to bet that, had they reached the americas, then carthaginian coins would have been found somewhere here.

I fail to see how. If it is an accident like it would have to be, why would a ship, bound for the south of africa, be carrying random coins. More likely to have supplies and goods to accomadate a long journey.

A hypothesis I read stated that it was possible if atlantis still existed, it could have travaled from africa and coast hugged atlantis and then arrived in south america.

[Aemilius Paulus]

A hypothesis I read stated that it was possible if atlantis still existed, it could have travaled from africa and coast hugged atlantis and then arrived in south america.

I would not even call that a hypothesis. Why did you mention it? I hope it was just for the lulz, because honestly, how the heck could you have an entire continent we do not know of??

If geologists today can tell what continents looked back in the Silurian, then why can they not do the same for something that happened 2,500 years ago? In any case, there are at least more than a million reasons why Atlantis in the middl eof Atlantic is false, and I do believe we all know why.

[Ghaust the Moor]

Also, looking at the picture of the coin shows where they may have landed. IMOO it looks like they landed in what is now labrador. Compare the coastline of north america and the coin.





Also, here is a chart of currents that I have drawn a scenario on.


TO
1. An flotilla of exploration vessels from Carthage sets sail for southern africa.
2. The cross through the straits of Gibraltar
3. A storm has begun to batter the Carthaginian flotilla.
4. The storm disables the carthaginian ships and they begin drift in the powerful current.
5A. They have been drifting for a week or two now.
5B. The current has slung shot them into a lateral drift parralel to the north american coast.
6. They are then oaring north against the current as land is in sight.
7. The land in canada!!!

From
1.The set sail from canada.
2. Light shear currents carry the ship south along the coast
3. Current turns and carries the ship back towards europe.
4. Currents carry ships back towards iberia
5. The straits of gibralter are within sight.
6. They return towards the mediterranean.
7. They reach carthage.

[Jolt]

I bet they have reached the New World. Though I very much doubt that they:

1. Reached it on purpose.
2. Reached it alive.

[Jolt]

I would not even call that a hypothesis. Why did you mention it? I hope it was just for the lulz, because honestly, how the heck could you have an entire continent we do not know of??

Obviously Atlantis existed. In Plato's writings, apparently he says that it sunk. However, part of it didn't, and the Atlantis successor, Bartix continued their work of world domination. Where the hell did you think Bartix came from anyway... <__<'

[Prussian to the Iron]

May I ask you why?

well, its quite obvious; someone on the ship had to be carrying some sort of carthaginian coin. especially if it was a merchant ship as suggested by some.

[Cute Wolf]

But WHEN they really reach that by themself... wait.. these paranormal links are unrealible aren't you? At least the romans will try to mount an expedition to conquer america, and now there was no USA, instead of Senatus Populus Que Americus (no, Nova Romanus) // SPQNR... because britain is still a place filled with headhurlers and woad warriors...

[Conradus]

Also, here is a chart of currents that I have drawn a scenario on.

Don't the currents change over time (or is that a current chart from ancient times?)

I remember reading once that one of the reasons the Vikings never settled more of Canada was that the way there was blocked because the currents changed.

[Apázlinemjó]

West Africa - South America path would had been easier and shorter for them, although I doubt that they had ever reached the "new" continent.

[Celtic_Punk]

currents do change. I doubt the currents played in their favour, otherwise we'd have seen carthaginian trade settlements.

as for carthie coins in teh americas? they'd have brought them to show teh wealth to the new people they'd inevitably meet.

[Cimon]

Apologies for the double post.

See post below.

(Moderator can delete this post.)

[Cimon]

The "evidence" provided is (as I said above) dubious at best. For example, the pottery found in Mexico is the socalled Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca head (see Wikipedia: here).

It's most likely a hoax. You can draw your own conclusions, but barring serious evidence that is essentially unimpeachable, it's going to have to remain a fantastical theory in my book. A lot of these theories are based on the same type of "evidence" that Gavin Menzies offered in 1421: The Year China Discovered America. Like the evidence there, the old world theories have been pretty much debunked.

(Another example, as I posted above, is the Bat Creek Inscription, which you can read about here).

[Andy1984]

I feel free to say that while the Carthaginian-theory is based on little more than one coin, Menzies has more than one argument to support his view. While I don't take all arguments he offers, his theory is still way more convincing than the Carthaginian ships exploring the Americas.

The most important reason being: it's not because you're a great ship-builder in the Mediterranean, ocean-worthy ships are being built by accident and by even more accident floated to the Americas. You'll need experience in ocean-ship-building techniques, in surviving at sea for a prolongued time, a decent plan to sail west (including mappers), and a good deal of luck to make it back alive.

kind regards,

Andy

[Leão magno]

In my country there are studies about their presence here (Carthaginians). For us it seems correctly to say that some sort of merchants and exploration did occur here. There seems to have been foundings made by Portugal, and later, by ourselves.
I am not good with references, and most of them are in portuguese... but "antiga história do Brasil" de "Ludwig Schwennhagen" is quite a complete source, complete meaning it makes lots of references to works developed in USA, Germany, England, Brasil, Portugal, so on.
Anyway, for those who understand Portuguese, see this link as an extra reference " http://www.acasicos.com.br/html/fencios.htm " . If it is not enough to convince someone, at least, it may be enough to entice the curiosity for you to come and visit my country, see the sites and take your ouw decision :)
You will be very welcome :)

[K-Dogs]

i am not saying they didn't; i would be thrilled to hear that and get a mod where i can attack the incas with carthaginian and not be weird.

I love how you seem more excited by the prospect of a mod for this than the historical significance of it, haha.

also...

California's East Bay Walls, ancient low rock walls east of San Francisco Bay, have long been a mystery. No one knows who built them or why. In 1904, Dr. John Fryer, professor of Oriental languages at U.C. Berkeley, declared: "This is undoubtedly the work of Mongolians... the Chinese would naturally wall themselves in, as they do in all of their towns in China."

Undoubtedly Dr John Fryer, undoubtedly.

[Celtic_Punk]

....The most important reason being: it's not because you're a great ship-builder in the Mediterranean, ocean-worthy ships are being built by accident and by even more accident floated to the Americas. You'll need experience in ocean-ship-building techniques, in surviving at sea for a prolongued time, a decent plan to sail west (including mappers), and a good deal of luck to make it back alive.

kind regards,

Andy

this is very true. Look how unprepared the europeans were thousands of years later when they explored the Americas. It was discovered by accident too. Many voyages turned into disasters. I'm sure a lot of sinkings too, that were unrelated to piracy or war. It is my belief that if ANY Carthaginian stepped foot on the Americas, (and if he did I'm sure it was south america) he then had a new home, till his death.


this gives me an idea for a book.... Ancient version of the best book of all time "The Hatchet"
I wouldnt even tell the reader outright where he is, to make it seem much more interesting and wondrous. You'd have to figure it out, which you would eventually given that he'd inevitably encounter the animals, but descriptions would be strangely written to convey the man's unfamiliarity and his superstitious attitude to the new and unknown. I could call it... "No Way Back Again"

by the way if i see that on shelves without my name as the author... We'll have trouble hahaha