Carthies in the new world?

[J.R.M]

Hello, I know its not related with EB, but i remind reading some time ago about a "theory" that says some Carthaginians could have traveled in what is today part of Mexico. Could this have happened? or even possible? I would like to know opinions of people in this forum that have far more knowlage about history than me. Thx in advance. Cheers.

[Aemilius Paulus]

We already had this thread. In any case, everyone should have a natural sense of scepticism towards anything this sensational. If the main historical community is against this, then I doubt we know any better. From what I heard, though, the Qart-Hadastim supposedly landed in the vicinity of Venezuela.

[Watchman]

Now I know they had pretty hot ships for the time, but Atlantic crossing...? Sounds extremely dubious.

[IrishHitman]

Egyptian reed ships and large Irish curraghs can make the journey, why can't the Carthies?

I doubt it happened though, they have no reason to go that far West.
They probably ran into the Azores if they got anywhere.

[Olaf The Great]

They definitely had the potential, and theres a Carthaginian Coin that seems to have a map of Europe, Africa, and a western continent.

Incidentally it's the one the EB Icon is taken from, with a horse and a Palm Tree.

EDIT: http://phoenicia.org/imgs/exaggeratedcoinworldmap.jpg

[Ghaust the Moor]

here is a link to a site

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Now I know they had pretty hot ships for the time, but Atlantic crossing...? Sounds extremely dubious.

The norse did it, and the Phoenecians navigated the Horn of Africa around 500 BC. However, I think it more likely they sailed north, then west.

[Watchman]

Erm, North Atlantean and Mediterranean shipbuilding were two *very* different fields you know... and even then the Scandinavians "island-hopped" by way of Iceland and Greenland.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Hello, I know its not related with EB, but i remind reading some time ago about a "theory" that says some Carthaginians could have traveled in what is today part of Mexico.

Ah, hence the Sombrerophoroi Thorakitai.


Sorry couldn't resist. :D

[J.R.M]

Oops sorry, ill do a forum search next time. Sombrerophoroi thorakitai, i would like to see that, LOL.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Erm, North Atlantean and Mediterranean shipbuilding were two *very* different fields you know... and even then the Scandinavians "island-hopped" by way of Iceland and Greenland.

You certainly have a point about island hopping, and it is known that Phoenicians never strayed far from the shore, nor planned for it. The only possible way for them to reach Americas would seem to me as through a storm that flung them from Africa to Brazil in the narrowest part of Atlantic between the two. And AFAIK, there are speculation that the same happened to Egyptians as well as Phoenicians.

One must also remember the voyages of Hanno the Navigator and most importantly Pytheas, the two greatest tales of Exploration of Antiquity. I suggest all of you who have not yet read about Pytheas read that Wikipedia article. I have my own book on him which I refer to, but given the length of the Wiki article, I am certain it will be quite useful too.

Since I am too lazy to type more, especially since I have already posted his story on .Org, I will simply copy+paste the first paragraph of Wikipedia on him:
Pytheas of Massilia (Ancient Greek Πυθέας ὁ Μασσαλιώτης), 4th century BC, was a Greek geographer and explorer from the Greek colony, Massilia (today Marseille, France). He made a voyage of exploration to northwestern Europe at about 325 BC. He travelled around and visited a considerable part of Great Britain. Some of his observations may refer to Stonehenge, the earliest report (if true). Pytheas is the first person on record to describe the Midnight Sun, polar ice, the first to mention the name Britannia and Germanic tribes and the one who introduced the idea of distant "Thule" to the geographic imagination. His account is the earliest to state that the moon is the cause of the tides.

He reached Britain, Sweden, Denmark and most likely Iceland (he called it Thule and mentioned its volcanoes, and Iceland is the only place that has volcanoes in that part of the world)

[Watchman]

True, but you can do most of *that* sailing by coast-hugging - which indeed was more or less the standard for Mediterranean sea travel, far as I know. Not that Atlantic and Baltic sailors didn't mostly rely on that approach too of course.

Doesn't yet speak of ocean-crossing level of shipbuilding and navigational chutzpah, though obviously an even more salient issue is why they'd have sent an expedition into that featureless desert of open water in the first place...

The "blown astray by storm" theory might work, though I've my doubts about period Mediterranean ships' ability to withstand Atlantic storms - and there's also the obvious question of how they'd then get back...

[the man with no name]

I think it's true, What about you?

[Aemilius Paulus]

Doesn't yet speak of ocean-crossing level of shipbuilding and navigational chutzpah, though obviously an even more salient issue is why they'd have sent an expedition into that featureless desert of open water in the first place...

Right again. I read that even Phoenicians were deathly afraid of the wide expanses of the Atlantic, and their coast-hugging was nowhere more apparent than in their Western African voyages.

The "blown astray by storm" theory might work, though I've my doubts about period Mediterranean ships' ability to withstand Atlantic storms - and there's also the obvious question of how they'd then get back...

Alto ugh I do not agree with the theory either, taking your stance on this issue, I do have to point out that storms are too unpredictable and varied to accurately assess the chances of a ship surviving it. There are simply too many factors and variables here.



As for the getting back part, there is nothing like desperation they say... Now, the main problem here is that the marooned Phoenicians would have no idea about the local winds and currents, much less the distance of water required to cover, as it is assumed that the deviation due to a storm was not accurately assesses....

Well, that is why I discount the hypothesis that Phoenicans could have made the voyage in the first place. This still, however, does not discount the possibility of Phoenicians wrecking or being trapped forever in the Americas. Which may still be possible, although, once again, I doubt it.


All this said, a brief glance at a globe(not just a map), will show the folly of such hypotheses, as the smallest distance between the Old and New Worlds is between Liberia and the triangular outer tip of Brazil. Phoenicians were not known to frequent Liberia, AFAIK. Hanno did it, and he was immortalised for it (although it is most likely he reached Cameroon, as testamented by his account of a volcano, the nearest ones which exists in Cameroon).

[Cute Wolf]

After reading those texts, I suppose:
1) Giving the lack of archeological evidence except that coins, we couldn't say that the Karthadastim had allready comes in America... the things will be diffrent if that coins was found on america...
2) The "Wolrd Map" printed on that coins are more likely some sort of religious symbols, or secret sign (such as runes)
3) The Phoenicians are merchants, and they concern about profits, if they really reach america, maybe the romans allready eat chocolate bars and using rubber slings...

[J.R.M]

Thx for all replys, i would like to say also that there is the possibility of going there accidentaly and never returning.

Poor guys.

[mountaingoat]

lol i'm sure it would not have sucked that badly over there.

there is the case of cocaine in ancient egypt and the olmec that seemed to bare "african features" .

there are many things that are not accounted for in history ... it would seem that much more had gone on then we are led to believe..

poke around a little , you might find some more info on this topic.

[Urg]

So the only evidence to support the hypothesis is a squiggle on the bottom of a coin, no larger than my fingertip?

If the Carthaginians knew about the Americas so well that they had maps on their coins, don't you think there would be some literary record?

Is there something I'm missing?

[Alsatia]

If there were such maps, most likely the parchment/papyrus/paper etc. which the map was drawn on rotted to dust. The Carthaginians would of not given it to the Romans, yet anyone else for that matter. If they found a way to come back and forth from America to the Meditteranean (which I myself find hard to believe) and found out how to communicate to the peoples there, they would have a monopoly in trade, as Carthaginians were more concerned with money and trade than many other things......

[Cute Wolf]

But then they'll sold the chocolates for romans, and made those men goes fatter and fatter... so the Carthies could win the Punic war...

[Knight of Heaven]

But then they'll sold the chocolates for romans, and made those men goes fatter and fatter... so the Carthies could win the Punic war...

Indeed i heard they open a Mcdonalds in Rome near aventine oficial sources say its for the good of the comerce, and the relations of between the 2 empires, "Comerce is a virtue of any civilization", so the magistrate say. however rumors talk about food poisining, also much more cases of people been fatter, they claim to be a new type of warfare, could Rome stand against this biological atack?

Well about phoenichians been in americas...well its possible, but not likely, however there is much things that arent explanable, Goat refer some of then, but if you read some ancient greek talles, we found some americas caracteristics in some of those stories, like ancient civilizations discribed by platon, who resenbles very much with the incas or the aztecs. And just some decades ago we thought troy was a Myth, and then someone found the ruins of troy, greek talk about centaurs, could they be talking about those steep warriors who ride a horse sense little childrens?, they talk about amazons, could they talk about sarmatians womens?
Now theres a guy o claims to found atlantida in south america in Andes,the city of Tiwanaku they found a lake, and a ruins of port with large boats capable to do the atlantic travel, they existed in 17.000 B.C to 12.000 B.C acording to platon they did comerce in the mediterrain. True to be told its very possible but we just dont kown and its hard to find real evidence....i wish i had a time machine :) alltought the ancient south americas civs are for a new discussion.

[Andronikos]

That coin could depict anything and if it is map, that "America" could be Azores or Canary Islands.
With present evidence I strongly doubt that Carthaginians were in America. Yes, some adventurers got there on antique designed ships, but they had a lot of knowledge the Carthies didn't, they knew that there is land, they knew winds, currents. If some ship got it further from the coast, they saw, that there is nothing but water, no land, no goods, no people to trade with, so it is likely they turned back.

Romans did good job destroying everything Carthaginian so the probability of finding some Carthaginian records about their voyages is low.

[Apázlinemjó]

It's not America, it's Atlantis! Lawl.

[Andronikos]

Yeah, Atlantis, that only shows how that website underestimates that coin, America, huh? :D

[Conradus]

Well about phoenichians been in americas...well its possible, but not likely, however there is much things that arent explanable, Goat refer some of then, but if you read some ancient greek talles, we found some americas caracteristics in some of those stories, like ancient civilizations discribed by platon, who resenbles very much with the incas or the aztecs. And just some decades ago we thought troy was a Myth, and then someone found the ruins of troy, greek talk about centaurs, could they be talking about those steep warriors who ride a horse sense little childrens?, they talk about amazons, could they talk about sarmatians womens?

Isn't the whole Atlantis myth based on the eruption of that volcano which was amongst the causes of the downfall of the Minoan civilzation and Plato's vision of an ideal state to compare his contempories with? I mean, we aren't searching for Socrates' cave either.

[Watchman]

Mind, the Incas (who were in up the damn Andes anyway, ie. across the malaria jungles of Amazon from the Atlantic) and Aztecs (who sure as Hell didn't exactly match up to anything Plato dreamed up) weren't even around yet at the time...

[Drewski]

An interesting point, is the generally accepted view of the re/discovery of Brazil by Pedro Cabral. He was on his way around the Cape, but sort to avoid the calms off West Africa, and catch the trade winds further west; a proven speedier method. But basically, they blew him a bit further west than he intended, and Brazil was found...

The fleet of thirteen ships left Lisbon on 9 March 1500, and following the course laid down, sought to avoid the calms off the coast of Gulf of Guinea. On leaving the Cape Verde Islands, where Luís Pires was forced by a storm to return to Lisbon, they sailed in a decidedly southwesterly direction. On 21 April a mountain was visible, to which the name of Monte Pascoal was given; on 22 April Cabral landed on the coast of Brazil, and on 25 April the entire fleet sailed into the harbor called Porto Seguro.

Now, I know Phoenician sailors (and virtually all sailors) of that time period, were loathe to leave the coast, but just maybe, some followed that route by accident.

And then who knows? On a side note, some Marine Archaeology friends of mine have been exploring the Bimini area for some years now. They are quite convinced, that they have found remains of what seem to be Phoenician type harbors in the shallow waters there..

I remain a sceptic with an open mind

[Aemilius Paulus]

Isn't the whole Atlantis myth based on the eruption of that volcano which was amongst the causes of the downfall of the Minoan civilzation and Plato's vision of an ideal state to compare his contempories with? I mean, we aren't searching for Socrates' cave either.

Yeah, more like the Theran civilisation which was even more advanced than the Minoans. I read a book on them, an archaeological excavation on Thera, the biggest thing in archaeology for quite some time now. There is a whole entire city on Thera, rivalling Pompeii in its preservation, which was the site of the Volcano which caused its own and Minoan death BTW (as well as probably the Moses' plagues of Egypt, since the timing was almost precise).

I suggest you read about it too, as it is almost fantastical how advanced the Therans were. Most notably their plumbing. The whole city was riddled with pipes, which led to all sorts of nifty things, including showers, bath tubs, and self-flushing toilets.

[Aemilius Paulus]

An interesting point, is the generally accepted view of the re/discovery of Brazil by Pedro Cabral. He was on his way around the Cape, but sort to avoid the calms off West Africa, and catch the trade winds further west; a proven speedier method. But basically, they blew him a bit further west than he intended, and Brazil was found...

That is true, but of course, his ship was built in a manner that would enable it to quite handily withstand more than just coast hugging. Caravels were the staple of the age of exploration. On the other hand, Phoenicians were the most notorious coast-huggers there could be.

They travelled more than anyone, but were just as coast-hugging as anyone else was in their days, despite their skill. They never even had the provisions for long voyages away from land. Their ships had a construction that all but made them useless in rough water. Vikings (Norse) may have built simpler ships, but yet those ships were suited for such travel, and their only weakness was the lack of storage areas, unless they were using the knorr. But knorr was a trading/transport vessel, and not as seaworthy as their trademark longboats. Hence their Island hopping - from Iceland, to Greenland, and to Newfoundland.

I could buy the Phoenicians accidentally being marooned in Brazil, but bot coming back. Just look at the map of the currents there. They all go from Liberia to the tip of Brazil, and not vice versa. Same with the winds. You would need to cross a much wider expanse of ocean for the voyage back.

[Cimon]

Yeah, more like the Theran civilisation which was even more advanced than the Minoans. I read a book on them, an archaeological excavation on Thera, the biggest thing in archaeology for quite some time now. There is a whole entire city on Thera, rivalling Pompeii in its preservation, which was the site of the Volcano which caused its own and Minoan death BTW (as well as probably the Moses' plagues of Egypt, since the timing was almost precise).

I suggest you read about it too, as it is almost fantastical how advanced the Therans were. Most notably their plumbing. The whole city was riddled with pipes, which led to all sorts of nifty things, including showers, bath tubs, and self-flushing toilets.

The site is called Akrotiri, and I highly suggest visiting it. It it well worth one's time. As Aemilius Paulus says, the city was highly advanced for its time, including two story houses and advanced plumbing. It is very well preserved, and while visitors don't have the same freedom to walk around as they do at Pompeii, one can still get the gist of the city. Plus, Santorini is beautiful in and of itself.

The island used to be a center land mass, surrounded by water, which was in turn encircled by an outer ring of land, such that it looked like a target. When the volcano (which of course was the entire island itself) exploded, half of the center section and a good portion of the outer ring slid beneath the surface of the water, so that it looks like someone took a butcher's knife and just hacked through the center of the place.

AP - perhaps you can refresh my memory: isn't Akrotiri viewed as a Minoan colony?

As to the Carthaginians in the Americas, I have to remain skeptical. It's not totally outside the realm of possibility (try to prove a negative), but it certainly seems extremely unlikely. The theory is mostly based on completely spurrious evidence such as the Bat Creek Inscription, and (if memory serves) a supposed rock carving in Brazil that is probably not a carving at all, but rather a natural formation. It's all rather dubious, at best.