Wall Combat

[Drewski]

Can anyone explain to me, that when attacking walls, anything which has a spear 2nd weapon and a sword or axe primary, automatically uses the spear?

Yesterday, I was battling AS as MAK. I gave the 2 siege towers to my 2 units of Hypaspistai. Now they scaled the walls, and one unit took on a levy Phalanx, while the other took on some Archers and Skirmishers. Yet (and I watched very closely) they were all using spears, even though they have a .225 lethality sword as primary weapon. Hence they took FAR more casualties than necessary.

I've also noticed this happen with other units that have both spear and axe/sword...(and yes of course, I tried all kinds of "alt right clicking" etc.)

If I'm not going completely mad, and others find this to be true, can someone explain why?

[Maion Maroneios]

I'm afraid that can't be changed. It's a thing that happens automatically. I know it sucks, but that's how things are

Maion

[DaciaJC]

Would it be possible to somehow remove the spear completely? I suffer from the same situation when using my Dacian Agema Orditon.

Oh, and Drewski, try simply right-clicking (not alt right-clicking). For some reason, those type of units will switch to their swords (not all of them, though, and eventually some of them will resort back to the spear) when just right-clicking.

[Drewski]

Would it be possible to somehow remove the spear completely? I suffer from the same situation when using my Dacian Agema Orditon.

Oh, and Drewski, try simply right-clicking (not alt right-clicking). For some reason, those type of units will switch to their swords (not all of them, though, and eventually some of them will resort back to the spear) when just right-clicking.

Its pretty straightforward to remove the spear, but they'd miss it when fighting horses...

I thought I'd tried all manner of clicking combos...will have to try your idea next time and check the results..

[gamerdude873]

wouldn't it just be easier to mod the edu file (or whatever it is) to place the spear as primary? and in the case of the dacian spearmen or classical hoplitai, give them a backup sword? It would at least solve the headache...

btw, how would one go about adding another secondary weapon for a unit? Isn't there some sort of unit editor program out there?

[Maion Maroneios]

Apparently, doing that messes with the unit's model. Don't try it, it really messes up things.

Maion

[DaciaJC]

Indeed, I tried that myself. I'm glad I made a backup of all the relevant files.


Drewski: do units gain a bonus when fighting cavalry with a spear as opposed to a sword? Your sentence seems to convey that message.

[Watchman]

Yes. Doesn't everyone know that ?

Also gives the unit extra "pushing power" above and beyond its soldier mass attribute, which I'd imagine is useful in wall fights since it ought to increase the number of foes falling to their doom.

[DaciaJC]

There are plenty of things I have yet to learn about this game. I had thought that units classified as "spear" get the bonus, not just the spears themselves.

[Drewski]

Indeed, I tried that myself. I'm glad I made a backup of all the relevant files.


Drewski: do units gain a bonus when fighting cavalry with a spear as opposed to a sword? Your sentence seems to convey that message.

+8 to Defence, so they will theoretically take less casualties. BUT it depends upon the type of cavalry.

e.g. In the case of Hypis, once the cavalry have engaged, if you swop them to swords, they may actually kill the Cavalry faster because of the lethality, and hence take less casualties by using swords, that being if said Cavalry have low armor/defence...If the Cavalry are very heavily armoured, but have lowish melee attack, then using the spears (and having the Hypis on Defend mode) may result in lower casualties.

[Watchman]

Although, just for the record, I for one am quite unsure of the exact effects of the two spear attributes (other than that spear has some rather ridiculous side effects), as in systematic testing their performance didn't nearly match estimates...

[Aemilius Paulus]

+8 to Defence, so they will theoretically take less casualties. BUT it depends upon the type of cavalry.

e.g. In the case of Hypis, once the cavalry have engaged, if you swop them to swords, they may actually kill the Cavalry faster because of the lethality, and hence take less casualties by using swords, that being if said Cavalry have low armor/defence...If the Cavalry are very heavily armoured, but have lowish melee attack, then using the spears (and having the Hypis on Defend mode) may result in lower casualties.

Yeah, it does depend on many factors, as Drewski observantly noted. For instance, fighting as the Romani in the Mesopotamia, Pahlava and Hai territories, I found that my numerous contingents of Pedites Extraordianrii were the most effective troops versus those dreaded cataphracts. Their AP swords, even with low lethality, chopped those Hai cataphracts as if they were Pantadapoi. I am not even exaggerating. Those catas lasted no longer than Pantadapoi. That is because their defence is almost solely based on armour, with only 8 defence skill I believe, and no shield. They are also mounted units, and mounted units always die faster for some reason than equivalent foot units.


But anyway, my Triarii would take either 40-70% casualties gainsay those cataphracts or even lose. Pedites Extraordianrii usually lost less than ten (large unit scale) and no more than fifteen. ALWAYS use AP infantry against heavily armoured units. AP is the single most powerful bonus in RTW. However, using PEs against low armour units is a waste, especially given the low lethality of their kopis (.11 - lower than the worst spears)

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

AP is surely the most overpowered feature in RTW. I doubt that any curved sword design like that, or indeed anything short of a rhomphaia or certain axes would go through lamellar that easily. I would be eager to know if some accurate tests were done with this.

[A Very Super Market]

Engine stuff. Obviously unrealistic.

[Watchman]

Tip-heavy "cleaver" swords *are* pretty good at chopping stuff up, actually. For the sake of comparision the functionally nigh identical Medieval falchions were (like battleaxes) considered choppy enough to be good against nigh any armour short of solid steel plate...

Though I'll give you the RTW engine's solution of straight out halving the armour value is bit on the dramatic side.

[satalexton]

choppy

did u say choppy? WAAAGH!!!! DA ORKZ!!! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

[Apázlinemjó]

Can anyone explain to me, that when attacking walls, anything which has a spear 2nd weapon and a sword or axe primary, automatically uses the spear?

Yesterday, I was battling AS as MAK. I gave the 2 siege towers to my 2 units of Hypaspistai. Now they scaled the walls, and one unit took on a levy Phalanx, while the other took on some Archers and Skirmishers. Yet (and I watched very closely) they were all using spears, even though they have a .225 lethality sword as primary weapon. Hence they took FAR more casualties than necessary.

I've also noticed this happen with other units that have both spear and axe/sword...(and yes of course, I tried all kinds of "alt right clicking" etc.)

If I'm not going completely mad, and others find this to be true, can someone explain why?

Same with the Sweboz bodyguards.

[Aemilius Paulus]

AP is surely the most overpowered feature in RTW.

Yep, I certainly am . Still deciding whether I should sig this...

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

[Aemilius Paulus]

Well, I have decided that the quote is indeed worthy of a place in my signature. However, there is not enough place to stick anything else in my sig...


And I would hate for Churchill to go...



P.S.

[DaciaJC]

Well, I have decided that the quote is indeed worthy of a place in my signature. However, there is not enough place to stick anything else in my sig...


And I would hate for Churchill to go...



P.S.

Could you not stick it to the right of your "Balloon Count: 20"?

[Aemilius Paulus]

Could you not stick it to the right of your "Balloon Count: 20"?

Not if I wrap quote tags over it. That would make it at least two lines.

[Celtic_Punk]

don't place units on the wall if you have hoplites. Its a waste of time. Those Hypastai are much better use in the street, house to house across the street blocking the way. Nothing will get through.


well actually i'm not entirely sure about that. I'm used to putting Spartans there... and well your hypastai havent performed as well as I thought they should.

[Cute Wolf]

actually, hoplite type (without phalanx mod, or any mod that take their +4 attack value) is the most effective troops to be used on stone wall (not large), as my current KH campaign against Romani.... they could take down even pedites extraordinarii out of the city wall...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

but most of them die falling... in large wall, they're not as effeective

[DaciaJC]

actually, hoplite type (without phalanx mod, or any mod that take their +4 attack value) is the most effective troops to be used on stone wall (not large), as my current KH campaign against Romani.... they could take down even pedites extraordinarii out of the city wall...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

but most of them die falling... in large wall, they're not as effeective

Well, all "light-spear" designated units have that undeserved +4 attack, and so it would be better to pass judgment with the correct balances.

[Cute Wolf]

allready try that (-4 attack) mod, but the result is they only hold the enemy, and made them significantly weaker..... for countering phalanx (even the phalanx unit also get the -4, they have the reach advantage). And even epilektoi hoplitai suffer greatly against enemy cataphracts and hetairoi (they just merely hold them, not kill)

So I revert back to original EDU, maybe they had a larger attack value... but this was not overpowered in my point.... the light_spear have -4 defence against infantry... right? so they should have "+4 attack" for the sake of balance

[Watchman]

"Light_spear" has *some* kind of penalty against inf; not sure which, whatever the EDU Guide says. But it does seem to work out with the +4 attack. *shrug*

[Celtic_Punk]

Heed my advice! You'll lose less men if you go wall to wall in the streets. The more experienced and heavy your spear men are the better they shall hold. Massalian hoplites are pros at this, aswell as the spartans. Massalians may even be a bit better because of the quite lethal sword they have.

[Drewski]

"Light_spear" has *some* kind of penalty against inf; not sure which, whatever the EDU Guide says. But it does seem to work out with the +4 attack. *shrug*

No....it doesn't quite simply (as proved by examples above...Run of the mill Hoplitai defeating an elite unit of much better quality is just one example)

[Watchman]

Mind being more specific RE the example you're thinking of ?