Successor game rules, draft one.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I thought you would be interested in the idea of rules for duels, as it was the memory of Arnold impotently pursuing Jan that made me suggest the idea. I agree there is a risk of over-complexity, although with duels requiring mutual consent, it will be easy for a player to opt out if the rules just do their head in. Let's ponder on it for a few days and then when we have one or two specific proposals, we can decide.

One of the biggest problems in LotR was a sort of rule overload in which the complexity and sheer volume of things we had to familiar with was bogging down the game. Midway through the PBM, TinCow called a time-out and a group of us worked together to streamline things. Since then, there's been a kind of spoken and unspoken consent to make it as KISS as possible.

[ULC]

One of the biggest problems in LotR was a sort of rule overload in which the complexity and sheer volume of things we had to familiar with was bogging down the game. Midway through the PBM, TinCow called a time-out and a group of us worked together to streamline things. Since then, there's been a kind of spoken and unspoken consent to make it as KISS as possible.

I'm hoping that I can do a KISS for the participants, and handle the rules complexity on my side - this way, the participants would only need to play a rock paper scissors game, and try to focus on the psychology of their opponent. It's proven that you can consistently win at RPS, through strategy

[Zim]

If any duel system is picked, I'd say the easiest thing to do would be to place it outside the official KOTF rules, rather like TinCow's race in the Hippodrome. A "tournament field" thread could be created to act as both an IC thread and site for duels. Anyone wanting to fight one would then have to agree to go by the ruleset presented, or do it all as a story or whatever they prefer. I could implement any in-game changes they agreed on (say one character died, or they were betting a province or something).

That way the main rules don't get cluttered up, and if certain things worked or didn't it would be much easier play around with the duel rules.

[ULC]

If any duel system is picked, I'd say the easiest thing to do would be to place it outside the official KOTF rules, rather like TinCow's race in the Hippodrome. A "tournament field" thread could be created to act as both an IC thread and site for duels. Anyone wanting to fight one would then have to agree to go by the ruleset presented, or do it all as a story or whatever they prefer. I could implement any in-game changes they agreed on (say one character died, or they were betting a province or something).

That way the main rules don't get cluttered up, and if certain things worked or didn't it would be much easier play around with the duel rules.

I'm already adapting my rules to take this into account, which will centralize each characters stats for the duel system and will allow fair creation of Champions. We could go one step further and create full tourneys with the system, both for mounted and unmounted combat.

[econ21]

If any duel system is picked, I'd say the easiest thing to do would be to place it outside the official KOTF rules, rather like TinCow's race in the Hippodrome. ...

That way the main rules don't get cluttered up,...

In that spirit, it's probably best to split off discussion of tournament rules into a separate thread, so it does not crowd out or over-shadow consideratin of the core game rules. I'll start a new thread for it.

[TinCow]

One of the biggest problems in LotR was a sort of rule overload in which the complexity and sheer volume of things we had to familiar with was bogging down the game. Midway through the PBM, TinCow called a time-out and a group of us worked together to streamline things. Since then, there's been a kind of spoken and unspoken consent to make it as KISS as possible.

QFT, though I don't generally think this applies to ancillary rule systems like the chariot races. The biggest problem I see with the duels is not that they will be too complex (only one person really needs to understand them anyway) but that they won't be used. I originally imagined the chariot races as a way for people to gamble their possessions with others and to resolve disputes by seeing whose team won a race. It was never used for that.

If there is a serious risk of death from dueling, I doubt we'll see it used too much. I don't know about you, but I'm not likely to risk my avatar's life on a roll of the dice. If I'm going to get myself killed, it will be in a PvP battle. This is the reason I suggest drinking challenges instead.

[ULC]

QFT, though I don't generally think this applies to ancillary rule systems like the chariot races. The biggest problem I see with the duels is not that they will be too complex (only one person really needs to understand them anyway) but that they won't be used. I originally imagined the chariot races as a way for people to gamble their possessions with others and to resolve disputes by seeing whose team won a race. It was never used for that.

If there is a serious risk of death from dueling, I doubt we'll see it used too much. I don't know about you, but I'm not likely to risk my avatar's life on a roll of the dice. If I'm going to get myself killed, it will be in a PvP battle. This is the reason I suggest drinking challenges instead.

Oh, I see how it is - exclude those who can't or won't drink. And what if I dislike the alcohol in question?How fair of you

[AussieGiant]

The new thread is covering this gents.

And I make the same issue TC just did. It's a nice threat to have, which maybe all it needs to be as if someone in the Diet session has enough steam up he can use it as a leverage point.

Can you imagine Arnold with good duelling characteristics in a Diet session....sweat lord, it could have been a blood bath...literally.

Having said that...it's a hell of a risk.

[_Tristan_]

I originally imagined the chariot races as a way for people to gamble their possessions with others and to resolve disputes by seeing whose team won a race. It was never used for that.

I hate to contradict but I can remember at least one instance of this : settling the dispute between Methodios (myself) and Nikiphoros (Warmaster Horus) over Scopia of all provinces ().

And I must admit that I rather like the idea of non-lethal (but shameful, for the loser) "trial by god".

[ULC]

I hate to contradict but I can remember at least one instance of this : settling the dispute between Methodios (myself) and Nikiphoros (Warmaster Horus) over Scopia of all provinces ().

And I must admit that I rather like the idea of non-lethal (but shameful, for the loser) "trial by god".

So you like my rule set? Anything you'd like to see, amended, added, removed? Posted in the correct thread of course

[_Tristan_]

See my post in said thread

[mini]

we can always add that in later...

let's just get the game main rules out of the way so we can get started ;p

[econ21]

I am about done with my proposal on a system for duelling - we can see if rival systems are proposed and decide on how to go forward on the duelling "mini-game" in due course. It looks like we have some time before all the players have Kingdoms, so it might be good to review the core rules, which are much more important than any mini-game. I was struck by what TC said recently in another thread:

... how I feel about LotR in general: many improvements that made the game better, but lots of flaws with the system that prevented it from really coming into its own. Fortunately, a lot of those problems were ironed out along the way so we don't have to deal with them anymore. The 'Royal Army' system that was pioneered in KotR has transformed into an excellent and very efficient system for private ownership of military units, as have the rules for IC legislation and OOC rule changes. The built-in ability for the GM to launch 'events' at will also helps a great deal. However, the House structure and the PvP mechanics were never properly polished up during the game and we're still trying to resolve the problems with them now.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I wonder if this implies we need to do more work on House structure and PvP mechanics? Reading this thread, I can see the point about the latter, at least. Do other people think there are problems? Are there solutions? I'm coming late to this discussion and without the benefit of following LotR, so forgive me if I am asking to go over old ground.


EDIT:


On other matters, a few minor points on the rules:

3 (d) Wills and inheritance: insert Wills must be deposited with Zim before the character's death to be considered valid.
Ducal succession was an issue in KotR and personally I don't like players making key decisions after their avatar is dead. Do we explicitly allow Dukes to resign? If not, I think we should.

3 )(f) Rules disputes : maybe state that Zim's ruling can over turn that of the King/Prince/Chancellor? this is to avoid a player who really abuses this power in an OOC way. Also, I am leery of giving the Chancellor sole power over the disputes involving the King/Prince. Wouldn't a council of Dukes plus the Chancellor be better?

3(f) Emergency sessions I am leery about allowing Dukes to call these. They really slow the game down and I would rather not let one partisan player do this. Maybe require a second Duke to agree? Two Dukes shouting stop sounds like an emergency - one not so much.

On impeachment, presumably it requires an emergency session, if it is to be done out of full session?

5 (b) army ownership: what's a garrison? any pre-existing stack in a settlement? or just free upkeep militia?

French terminology - now we have selected our faction, does that mean we should change some terminology to fit the context? e.g. do we need titles for some of our concepts, e.g. should it be Senate or Parliament or Assembly or what? What are our 4 Houses going to be called and which provinces will be in which? My preference is for something regional, roughly corresponding to east, west, north, south, but I don't know the details.