This is something I should have remembered to say before, but there's something I don't see in the rules: In the Feudal System, land and titles given to a vassal become that vassal's property. There shouldn't be any functional difference between the King giving a province to a Duke and a Duke giving a province to a vassal. From this standpoint, having provinces revert to the Duke or King after a noble dies is a big problem. I'm sure this has already been discussed, though I can't remember when. I presume it was done to eliminate the problem in LotR of having province ownership become a huge jumble where ownership became hard to discern? I don't think this is a part of the LotR rules that needs to be changed: With the Houses made more stable, and a group of players who will presumably maintain interest better, I think that we should reinstate the ability to give provinces in a will.
I would especially like to point attention to a portion of the rules, 3(d).
(d) - Wills & Inheritance: Upon the death of a noble his land goes to the highest ranking member of his feudal chain. If he is independent the land goes to the King. All land in the King's Demesne is passed to the new King. Dukes can pass on their rank to a House member of their choosing, by naming a successor in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House. (emphasis mine)
Unless I'm missing something in the rules, the italicised portion includes all dukes as well as any independent barons or counts. For all such independent rulers, their personal desmense would become part of the King's when they died. That means Duchies would shrink over time if they didn't acquire new territories! While an interesting dynamic, I don't think that's what anyone has intended to be in KotF. Certainly it wouldn't be any better to treat independent Counts or Barons the same way. This would mean an independent Baron cannot pass on his title or his land to his own son!
I propose two competing alterations to 3(d). The first eliminates the particular problem I outlined in the previous paragraph, which I think must be addressed. The second is just the LotR rule for Will & Inheritance, which is both more appropriate to the setting and, I think, more likely to run smoothly in KotF. We could also remove the provision from the second version about allowing players will themselves at least one province and retinue.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
(d) - Wills & Inheritance: When a King dies, all land in his demesne is passed to the new King. Upon the death of any other noble, his land goes to the highest ranking member of his feudal chain. A noble who *is* the highest ranking member of his feudal chain can pass on his rank and personal demesne to a member of his feudal chain by naming a successor in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
(d) - Wills & Inheritance: On his death, all of a nobles’s provinces, retinue and his title are distributed according to the most recent valid Will. In order for a Will to be valid, it must have been posted in a public thread or PMed to Zim prior to the Senator’s death. Except as noted below, a Will provision is only valid to the extent that it names a living, of-age avatar that is controlled by another player as the inheritor of the province or retinue stated. A player's next avatar may only inherit a single province and a single retinue. A Will may name multiple Senators as inheritors, so long as each province and/or retinue is only bequeathed to a single Senator. Any provisions of the Will that do not meet these requirements will be invalid. Valid provisions of a Will will not be negated due to the existence of invalid provisions in the same Will. If there is no valid Will provision for an owned province, the Senator’s immediate Lord gains possession of the province. If the Senator also has no Lord, the Basileus gains possession of the province.[/B]
Cecil, I think independent was understood to mean not in a House and so would not apply to a Duke.
On the wider issues of wills, I'd like to advocate the half-way house on wills that Ignoramus suggested: allow nobles to bequeath their land to their sons (natural or adopted). I think that is characterful but not so open that it might undermine the House structure. The idea of nobles losing all their land on death to the Duke does seem a bit extreme, but also I can't imagine many nobles actually leaving land to random others who were not their sons.
Something like:
(d) - Wills & Inheritance: When a King dies, all land in his demesne is passed to the new King. A noble can pass on his rank his eldest son and bequeath his land to his children in a valid will. Dukes may pass on their rank and lands to any noble in their House in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House. If a lower ranked noble dies without a will, his land passes to the Duke or to the King if he is not in a House.
Last edited by econ21; 07-13-2009 at 23:47.
Reason: Reworded to allow titles below Duke to be passed on; demesne => lands
If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House.
Why retrain the King to picking the successor from the deceased Duke' s House ? If the KIng could choose to allot the land to any high-ranking noble (Count or above, say) it would help keep some Dukes in line or would enable to shift the balance of power between Houses.
What if an avatar who dies has no son of age yet ? Can the future heir be named in the will ? Will a steward be named until the avatar appears in game ?
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Why retrain the King to picking the successor from the deceased Duke' s House ? If the KIng could choose to allot the land to any high-ranking noble (Count or above, say) it would help keep some Dukes in line or would enable to shift the balance of power between Houses.
I think the intention is to maintain the integrity of the House.
What if an avatar who dies has no son of age yet ? Can the future heir be named in the will ? Will a steward be named until the avatar appears in game ?
I would say yes to all - the Steward idea is a neat one.
Cecil, I think independent was understood to mean not in a House and so would not apply to a Duke.
On the wider issues of wills, I'd like to advocate the half-way house on wills that Ignoramus suggested: allow nobles to bequeath their land to their sons (natural or adopted). I think that is characterful but not so open that it might undermine the House structure. The idea of nobles losing all their land on death to the Duke does seem a bit extreme, but also I can't imagine many nobles actually leaving land to random others who were not their sons.
Something like:
(d) - Wills & Inheritance: When a King dies, all land in his demesne is passed to the new King. A noble can pass on his rank to his eldest son and bequeath his land to his son in a valid will. Dukes may pass on their rank and personal demense to any noble in their House in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House. If a lower ranked noble dies without a will, his land passes to the Duke or to the King if he is not in a House.
I agree with this. It will cause problems RPing a feudal system if there is no hereditary system for inheritance. If there is no son (natural or adopted) or son-in-law, the Noble could certainly leave a will indicating his preference, but the King could choose to ignore it and give it to someone else (for more IC entertainment). This would also be a further encouragement for RBGs to get themselves onto the family tree, as they cannot establish any kind of legacy of their own without doing so.
One note on the above wording, however: I very much recommend that the word demesne not be used in any way except to refer to the King's lands. In the entire rest of the rule set, that's the only thing it refers to. Adding in that reference in relation to someone who is not the King is likely to result in confusion down the road.
Re: Successor game rules, draft one.
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Originally Posted by econ21
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