Trousers, hats and beards

[geala]

This is a patchwork post, just some (very) minor suggestions:

1. As M2TW allows different textures in a unit and you (the team) already used this feature with good result, could you add a bit more variety to Celtic and Germanic units by giving some warriors "short bracae", ending above or below the knee? There are some pictures and findings which suggest their use. Some (two, I presume) Iberian/Celtiberian units have already some in EB.

2. Some slingers in EB wear a petasos hat. While such a hat is a nice comforter in rain and sun alike (I own a reconstruction myself) it is relatively difficult to use the sling with a wide brimmed hat. Even with a bow such a hat is not the best solution. Could you give them a pilos cap instead? Such caps were seemingly widely used by the Greeks (despite looking a bit, ähm, funny) but I never saw one in EB, just the Spartans wearing the bronze helmet formed after the cap.

3. I was recently taking a look to Thracian warriors of the 3rd c. BC and later. In most pictures that I have seen they were without beards and without boots (the typical appearance for the classical Thracians in Greek paintings in the centurys before). In EB nearly all Thracians are bearded, wouldn't it be better to change this? The same could be said to Illyrian warriors. Never saw a picture of them with a beard, but in EB all units have one.
I presume that in EB II this will be not such a problem because of the different textures in a unit (when I take the recently shown Numidians as an example), with bearded and beardless warriors.

[JMRC]

The bracae are in, with Iberian units at least. As for Celts and Germanics, it will depend on the historians. Can't say yes or no at this point.

The pilos helmets are widely used in the hellenistic units. Have you checked the stele #6 ? As for slingers not using hats, it's debatable.

As you may understand, all features in the models, including the facial, are defined by historians based in evidence, sources, etc. As you said, we may have bearded and beardless warriors due to the multi-object concept in MTW2, so we will exploit that feature as much as we can.

[Megas Methuselah]

As you said, we may have bearded and beardless warriors due to the multi-object concept in MTW2, so we will exploit that feature as much as we can.

Yeah, that's my man, JMRC, the bearer of good news! The recent steeles have been so cool thus far. I hypothesize that the slingers/bowmen will sport a variety of headwear.

[Celtic_Punk]

Yes I cannot wait to see celtic armies... just because they won't be clone armies, it will really make my day!

[Cyclops]

I posted this on TWC a while ago:

I have found a refence to Roman facial hair in a book called Scipio Africanus: Rome's Greatest General.

On page 3 he notes "Roman Historians credit Scipio with being the first man in Rome to shave daily...Roman soldiers wore beards until Scipio's day...until the end of empire, Roman soldiers shaved daily".

He cites an entry in A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities ed. Wiliam Smith published London 1854 entitled Barba (beards I guess) pp196-8 which I am unable to crosscheck. A shame I can't give primary sources for this. I know how important this is to the mod, so I apologise: does anyone else have a reference for this?

Anyhoo, is there a case to skin Camillan Romans with beards?

On a less serious note should the Polybian reforms be renamed the Gillette reforms?

I believe EB period Greeks were mostly clean shaven but the Romans were bearded until the "Polybian reform" (=Scipionic reform, why does Marius get named and Scipio not?). IIRC the reson given for the fashion of shaving and close cropping facial hair (which had become prevalent by Alexander's day, but not originated by him) was so the dangly hairs would not be gripped by an enemy in battle.

If you ask me the shaving business sounds rather Theban, all those fashionable men in the Sacred Band trimming and preening as part of their elite, Spartan-arse-kicking status.

So I'll ask again if I may: is there a chance for bearded Camillans?

[Martelus Flavius]

So I'll ask again if I may: is there a chance for bearded Camillans?

Well actually I can know something about that... But the answer depends on what facial hair lenght is required to be called a "beard". (I mean if it requires more than 0.3 cm hairs to be so called, answer is then yes.)

More seriously, I cannot answer, it will depend of the historians concepting the unit. But I can already say that all are not going to be clean shaven.

Regards

Martelvs

[Teleklos Archelaou]

He cites an entry in A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities ed. Wiliam Smith published London 1854 entitled Barba (beards I guess) pp196-8 which I am unable to crosscheck. A shame I can't give primary sources for this. I know how important this is to the mod, so I apologise: does anyone else have a reference for this?

You can cross reference that William Smith citation - the entirety of the work is online at the Perseus Project. All of Smith's incredible antiquities book and his dictionary of biography and mythology are all online, available for free reading/searching/etc. I used the latter just today to find entries on Agesipolis II and Cleomenes II, of the Eurypontid line of kings of Sparta. They are incredible resources.

[Tux]

Yes I cannot wait to see celtic armies... just because they won't be clone armies, it will really make my day!

Ehh, not only the celtic armies just wait to see the Germanic ones since they have a great variety(cloaks, capes, beards, hair, etc) and many surprises will appear.

[Phalanx300]

Ehh, not only the celtic armies just wait to see the Germanic ones since they have a great variety(cloaks, capes, beards, hair, etc) and many surprises will appear.

Forgot you're an team member.

Sounds good, and between us, any work yet done on the Spartan?

[tls5669]

This is a patchwork post, just some (very) minor suggestions:

1. As M2TW allows different textures in a unit and you (the team) already used this feature with good result, could you add a bit more variety to Celtic and Germanic units by giving some warriors "short bracae", ending above or below the knee? There are some pictures and findings which suggest their use. Some (two, I presume) Iberian/Celtiberian units have already some in EB.

2. Some slingers in EB wear a petasos hat. While such a hat is a nice comforter in rain and sun alike (I own a reconstruction myself) it is relatively difficult to use the sling with a wide brimmed hat. Even with a bow such a hat is not the best solution. Could you give them a pilos cap instead? Such caps were seemingly widely used by the Greeks (despite looking a bit, ähm, funny) but I never saw one in EB, just the Spartans wearing the bronze helmet formed after the cap.

3. I was recently taking a look to Thracian warriors of the 3rd c. BC and later. In most pictures that I have seen they were without beards and without boots (the typical appearance for the classical Thracians in Greek paintings in the centurys before). In EB nearly all Thracians are bearded, wouldn't it be better to change this? The same could be said to Illyrian warriors. Never saw a picture of them with a beard, but in EB all units have one.
I presume that in EB II this will be not such a problem because of the different textures in a unit (when I take the recently shown Numidians as an example), with bearded and beardless warriors.

What exactly is that hat made out of anyways?

[geala]

What hat? The petasos? I don't know exactly, no findings so far of which I know. I'm momentarily not aware of literary evidence, but there may be some. It is highly likely that it was made from different materials, felt, leather and even straw in some cases. It is a mystery how the strange shape of some of the hats was achieved.
The pilos cap was presumably made most often from felt (pilos means "felt", "made of felt" in ancient Greek), but perhaps were also made sometimes from leather when you look at some ancient paintings. My petasos hat and my pilos cap are made from felt, the petasos is treated with glue to achieve the typical shape. To be honest, I don't like the result so much.

@ JRMC: thank you for your answer. I will put my trust in the EB historians of course, they cannot overlook the archaeological and pictoral evidence.

[Cadwalader]

This hat problem would make for a great book or documentary series. "Hats of the Ancients" I would call it.