Someone lost his marbles

[Rhyfelwyr]

Just to shake thing up:

How do you feel about the Stone of Scone?

Aha, that came to mind when I read the OP.

Truth be told, I don't care, it's a stone.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I thought the Stone of Scone was returned???

Do you really pronounce it as 'scoon'? Or is that only Scottish?

[Pannonian]

I thought the Stone of Scone was returned???

Do you really pronounce it as 'scoon'? Or is that only Scottish?

Major returned it, the soft git. The English should have kept it, as a reminder that the jackboot won't ever be removed from Scottish necks.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Major returned it, the soft git. The English should have kept it, as a reminder that the jackboot won't ever be removed from Scottish necks.

I really should stand up for the Auld Alliance here, but statements like that make me wish I was English. Ohoh.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Major returned it, the soft git. The English should have kept it, as a reminder that the jackboot won't ever be removed from Scottish necks.

You sure, it's not where it should be, as Neil Oliver will tell you.

Anyway, it has been Scottish jackboots on English necks since the 17th century.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Having thus come under the spell of English civilization, I hereby declare myself 'English' and shall henceforth defend England from Johnny Foreigner and his whining ways.

You really missed the mark. Actually, you didn't just miss the mark, you missed the venue, city and continent.

It would be rather foolish not to have space for them when they've wanted them back for so long.

No, I think nobody has been more right about Greece since an Ottoman General looked over the Bosporus and said 'four hundred soldiers should be enough'.

Let's digress:
When one drives from Brazil into Argentina, the first thing one sees is a big sign that says 'The Maldives are Argentine!'. The very first thing, the most important thing, they want foreigners to know about Argentina is the Falklands. The return of the Falklands has been made central to their nationalism. When the Argentinian provinces were re-organised a few years ago, the Falklands were re-administered to another province.

Of course, during the brief two decades that two dozen Argentines lived in the Falklands, nobody in Buenos Aires cared about these frozen rocks. It only became an issue after Argentina sank into misery, after its glorious future turned into a melancholy over what never was.

In Greece, entire temples have been let to rot. Ancient shrines, used by shepherds for their flock to shelter during winter. Even as we speak, big developers can build over priceless archeological sites. Certainly, the Greeks are outraged when this happens. But none of this is made into a central part of national identity. Yet a few statues displayed abroad are.

England shouldn't return islands and statues, it should send shrinks instead.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Maybe we should return what's left of that Crimean gun, as well?

[Xiahou]

Yea we just blatantly kicked them off there land and sent them to Oklahoma. Heres a fun fact for you, Oklahoma is actually the 7th circle of hell.

As for the marbles. I say the brits have the right to keep them, the Greeks of course have every right to invade and take them though.

Yeah, basically. The British took them fair and square. If the Greeks want their artifacts back it's up to them to persuade the British. The British have no obligation to return them.

[Sarmatian]

No, I think nobody has been more right about Greece since an Ottoman General looked over the Bosporus and said 'four hundred soldiers should be enough'.

Let's digress:
When one drives from Brazil into Argentina, the first thing one sees is a big sign that says 'The Maldives are Argentine!'. The very first thing, the most important thing, they want foreigners to know about Argentina is the Falklands. The return of the Falklands has been made central to their nationalism. When the Argentinian provinces were re-organised a few years ago, the Falklands were re-administered to another province.

Of course, during the brief two decades that two dozen Argentines lived in the Falklands, nobody in Buenos Aires cared about these frozen rocks. It only became an issue after Argentina sank into misery, after its glorious future turned into a melancholy over what never was.

In Greece, entire temples have been let to rot. Ancient shrines, used by shepherds for their flock to shelter during winter. Even as we speak, big developers can build over priceless archeological sites. Certainly, the Greeks are outraged when this happens. But none of this is made into a central part of national identity. Yet a few statues displayed abroad are.

England shouldn't return islands and statues, it should send shrinks instead.

Oh, this is great. When there's a heated discussion between French and English about HYW, there's your normal, everyday, run-of-the-mill, modern, democratic, European, vulgaris domestica type of nationalism. When there's a heated discussion between let's say Serbs and Bulgarians about a war that happened 600 years ago then it is Balkan Nationalism(tm). Something deeper, more sinister. Not really definable, we have no idea what it is, but it is something worse. God forbid that we think they are normal people. We started much more wars, wars that have been thousands times more bloody but that's normal. They? They have deep issues. It's normal only when we do it.

I'm willing to bet that there have been many examples of stuff of important cultural value destroyed in France over the centuries. Does that mean that no one in France would mind if come and take half of Versailles? Everyone would be "oh, help yourself, we've been trying to get rid of that old thing for ages". Britain sold London Bridge, can I take what I like from Buckingham Palace? It seems to me that they don't care about it all and I think they should have had more respect for London Bridge. Since they didn't, I'm declaring London open for looting. I don't think that my neighbour cares enough about his Yugo, so I'll take his Mercedes....

Who are you decide what Greeks should or should not deem important? To decide whether they need shrinks? They want something that stood in Athens for millenniums, that was important to them for millenniums, that was taken away illegally when one man used the corruption in an empire that conquered them and controlled them for a time. They gave their bullets to the Ottomans if they wouldn't damage the Parthenon. They want a part of their cultural heritage back, cultural heritage that survived countless wars, Romans and Turks and barbarians but couldn't survive one man who wanted to give inspiration to the British artists. And now they want it back. Really, crazy, nationalist idiots, all of them. Send them shrinks quickly, next they will start thinking that Athens is actually their capital while we all know that in reality it belong to everyone and we're all citizens of the world.

Discussion of whether BM should give it back is one thing, discussing motives of the Greeks in a condescending way is another. They definitely have legitimate reason to want it back...

[Incongruous]

Oh, this is great. When there's a heated discussion between French and English about HYW, there's your normal, everyday, run-of-the-mill, modern, democratic, European, vulgaris domestica type of nationalism. When there's a heated discussion between let's say Serbs and Bulgarians about a war that happened 600 years ago then it is Balkan Nationalism(tm). Something deeper, more sinister. Not really definable, we have no idea what it is, but it is something worse. God forbid that we think they are normal people. We started much more wars, wars that have been thousands times more bloody but that's normal. They? They have deep issues. It's normal only when we do it.

I'm willing to bet that there have been many examples of stuff of important cultural value destroyed in France over the centuries. Does that mean that no one in France would mind if come and take half of Versailles? Everyone would be "oh, help yourself, we've been trying to get rid of that old thing for ages". Britain sold London Bridge, can I take what I like from Buckingham Palace? It seems to me that they don't care about it all and I think they should have had more respect for London Bridge. Since they didn't, I'm declaring London open for looting. I don't think that my neighbour cares enough about his Yugo, so I'll take his Mercedes....

Who are you decide what Greeks should or should not deem important? To decide whether they need shrinks? They want something that stood in Athens for millenniums, that was important to them for millenniums, that was taken away illegally when one man used the corruption in an empire that conquered them and controlled them for a time. They gave their bullets to the Ottomans if they wouldn't damage the Parthenon. They want a part of their cultural heritage back, cultural heritage that survived countless wars, Romans and Turks and barbarians but couldn't survive one man who wanted to give inspiration to the British artists. And now they want it back. Really, crazy, nationalist idiots, all of them. Send them shrinks quickly, next they will start thinking that Athens is actually their capital while we all know that in reality it belong to everyone and we're all citizens of the world.

Discussion of whether BM should give it back is one thing, discussing motives of the Greeks in a condescending way is another. They definitely have legitimate reason to want it back...

Post is completley off point as well you know. You have failed to come up with an argument that strips away British claims of legality, and I disagree with the moralisms you have used.

cultural heritage that survived countless wars, Romans and Turks and barbarians

What a load of bollox, you clearly know nothing about the destruction of Greek heritage, Christ the Greeks themselves can't look after it.

[Sarmatian]

Post is completley off point as well you know. You have failed to come up with an argument that strips away British claims of legality, and I disagree with the moralisms you have used.

In this post I wasn't arguing British claim of legality but Louis' claim that the only reason Greeks want them back is blind nationalism.

Main reason why I think Elgin Marbles should be given back is because they belong there and they would be better appreciated together with the rest. As I've said in earlier posts, they're a part of a greater whole and could be enjoyed and appreciated much better in their proper cultural environment.

Also, I do think that the way Elgin obtained them wasn't fair and proper, even if it was legal (which is debatable).

What a load of bollox, you clearly know nothing about the destruction of Greek heritage, Christ the Greeks themselves can't look after it.

Which gives the right to anyone else to take what he wants from Greece? Anyway, they've built a fine museum so we know that they can take care of these sculptures better than British Museum can.

[Pannonian]

Maybe we should return what's left of that Crimean gun, as well?

That's an absolute disgrace which any historian should be rightfully furious about. Not only do they not properly keep it, they periodically hack chunks off this valuable historical artifact, and melt those bits of debris down to make jewellery. IMHO the Russian government should complain about this wanton vandalism of its historical treasure, and demand its return, and the return of those baubles that were made from their property.

[rasoforos]

In Greece, entire temples have been let to rot. Ancient shrines, used by shepherds for their flock to shelter during winter. Even as we speak, big developers can build over priceless archeological sites. Certainly, the Greeks are outraged when this happens. But none of this is made into a central part of national identity. Yet a few statues displayed abroad are.

I am beyond words with your ignorant and arrogant statements. I just believe you are having fun trolling but I would rather you do not, since this is a sensitive issue.

FUI before anything is built in Greece, the Archaeological service inspects and conducts thorough analyses. If even something small like a coin is found then you may not built until everything is excavated and if buildings are found you cannot built at all. It took someone close to our property about 15 years to be able to built. So no, basically no one builds over priceless archaeological sites unless they are located inside your own head.

Ancient sites were of course used by shepperds etc 500 years ago, everywhere in the world. There was no archaeology back then. So your point was basically valid but alas, half a millenium too late.

Now to the main argument:

1. The marbles are not an artefact or a statue. They are part of a temple. Pieces of the temple were hacked off and taken away and that is an act of vandalism. Taking them out is like taking the Black Stone our of Kaaba and it is as infuriating to the Greeks as such an act would be for the Arabs.

2.

Elgin did not have a altruistic motive to 'save' the marbles. His plan was to sell them and make lots of money. And he did just that.

3.

The marbles were damaged multiple times. Firstly by lord Elgin who's idea of Archaeology was to hack things off.

Secondly by inept 'archaeologists' whose idea of restoration included caustic materials, chiselling, lard,oil etc. Consequently the marbles are in very poor state and all in all much more damaged than the rest of the temple (even though it is exposed to the elements).

Thirdly the marbles have been often subjected to various acts of vandalism in the British museum. As if their own 'restoration' techniques were not enough...

It is time the marbles are given the attention they deserve, by people who really value them, and not by people who just make money out of them. I fear that if this is not made so, in a century or two we will just seeing pictures of them.

4.

There is an international trend about returning pieces of the Parthenon back to their rightful owner and many countries and national collectors have done so, realising their importance.


5.

The Parthenon is a world heritage site and a symbol of western civilisation, and should therefore be restored to the best state possible.

6.

The Parthenon is a temple to the Goddess Athena. To a number of Greeks, lord Elgins actions were acts of desecration of a religious site.


Once again, this is a very sensitive issue to Greeks. Participants should take into account that each nation has different sensitivities and tollerances towards obnoxious attempts to humour. I would kindly ask the moderating team to keep trolling behaviour at bay. I already feel trolled enough as it is...


I forgot to mention that, polls show that, the majority of the Brits out there are in favour of the marbles being returned. Thank you guys :)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

1. The marbles are not an artefact. They are part of a temple.

The fact they are part of a temple does not mean that they are also not an artifact. They are indeed artifacts.

Elgin did not have a altruistic motive to 'save' the marbles. His plan was to sell them and make lots of money. And he did just that.

In my opinion totally irrelevant, but I digress...

Thirdly the marbles have been often subjected to various acts of vandalism in the British museum. As if their own 'restoration' techniques were not enough...

Before making such a serious accusation I would recommend you back that up with what vandalism was committed and with sources.

There is an international trend about returning pieces of the Parthenon back to their rightful owner and many countries and national collectors have done so, realising their importance.

That has no relevance to Britain, last I checked they are still a sovereign nation and can make decisions for themselves. You can always continue with some form of negotiation if you want them back.

The Parthenon is a world heritage site and a symbol of western civilisation, and should therefore be restored to the best state possible.

I don't disagree with that, but Greece doesn't deserve the Marbles back though your statement is true.

The Parthenon is a temple to the Goddess Athena. To a number of Greeks, lord Elgins actions were acts of desecration of a religious site.

How many Greeks were pagan when they were taken? In that timeframe? I don't think many were more pagan than Lord Elgin himself.

[Kurando]

Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne'er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!

Not to make lite of a serious situation, but that is quite possibily the worst poem I have ever encountered in my entire life!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Anyway, it has been Scottish jackboots on English necks since the 17th century.

What?

[Samurai Waki]

If the Greeks want them, they should be willing to put their money where their mouth is. You can't expect hand me outs, especially from the British

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What?

Since James I, Rhy, all subsequent Royal claims run through him.

An uncomfortable truth North of the border, and South as well. The Scots won the war because the English ran out of game-pieces.

[Furunculus]

send them back.

i'm not interested in some guilt trip about the terrible 'injustice' of the event, but if they can take care of them properly and want them back, then lets give them back.

[Furunculus]

Yea we just blatantly kicked them off there land and sent them to Oklahoma. Heres a fun fact for you, Oklahoma is actually the 7th circle of hell.

As for the marbles. I say the brits have the right to keep them, the Greeks of course have every right to invade and take them though.

rofl, i shudder with dread fear!

[Sarmatian]

rofl, i shudder with dread fear!

They could probably take on both you and US but they are afraid of possible Luxembourgian intervention...

[Papewaio]

Since James I, Rhy, all subsequent Royal claims run through him.

An uncomfortable truth North of the border, and South as well. The Scots won the war because the English ran out of game-pieces.

Aren't the game pieces now Greek too by the male line?

[Jolt]

I'm apalled to see how many people promote and defend cultural theft. People who deem stealing property which is not theirs to begin with as acceptable. And the moral abhorrency behind such an act as irrelevent. Greeks made and built those artifacts which were built in honor of what those Greeks believed in, and is therefore a part of the Greek heritage. I would love for once to see the rocks of Stonehenge stolen, and appearing a year later on display at the museum of St. Petersburg, to see what would be the opinion of our British colleagues (Especially those at the British museum). At least a regular thief steals from an individual or a group of individuals. Britain has in effect stolen a part of a World Heritage site, which is the same as stealing from the entire humanity. I look forward to your applause and adulation, when works of art in Le Louvre are stolen.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Britain has in effect stolen a part of a World Heritage site, which is the same as stealing from the entire humanity.

Was it a World Heritage site then? Were the goods even technically stolen? Your analogies simply do not compare.

[Papewaio]

Was it a world heritage site before or after the marbles had been removed?

There is a lot of obelisks from the antiquities in other countries...

[Furunculus]

I'm apalled to see how many people promote and defend cultural theft. People who deem stealing property which is not theirs to begin with as acceptable. And the moral abhorrency behind such an act as irrelevent. Greeks made and built those artifacts which were built in honor of what those Greeks believed in, and is therefore a part of the Greek heritage. I would love for once to see the rocks of Stonehenge stolen, and appearing a year later on display at the museum of St. Petersburg, to see what would be the opinion of our British colleagues (Especially those at the British museum). At least a regular thief steals from an individual or a group of individuals. Britain has in effect stolen a part of a World Heritage site, which is the same as stealing from the entire humanity. I look forward to your applause and adulation, when works of art in Le Louvre are stolen.

I'm with EMFM here, greece has no legal right to the marbles, and britain as a sovereign nation state has no legal obligation to return them whatever other nations choose to do so.

However, greece does have the right to negotiate for their return, and I would be sympathetic to that request as an isolated decision that forms the basis of no future precedent.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I've noticed that the opinions here tend towards being against repatriation of the artefacts from posters of imperial nations, and for that repatriation by posters from nations who have experienced colonisation - at least, reasonably recently.

That is understandable perhaps. It is hard for people who do not relate to the concept of being owned by a great power to understand the symbols that are clung to - however illogical. However, one should try.

It is certainly hard to establish a legal basis for returning the marbles to Greece. Equally, there ought to be a recognition that without Elgin's opportunistic theft, the carvings would likely be in a much worse condition - the Parthenon very nearly dissolved in the seventies and eighties.

That said, there is a compelling moral argument for an ex-Imperial power to recognise the hurt which the marbles' exile represents. It would be an act of generosity towards all those people who suffered under an Imperial yoke (and especially to Greece) to give back the relics now that they have a museum worthy of them, so that they may be seen in actual context.

Such an act of generosity need not set a precedent, but the world could bear a sensible examination of the acts of plunder that fill most western museums.

[Furunculus]

I've noticed that the opinions here tend towards being against repatriation of the artefacts from posters of imperial nations, and for that repatriation by posters from nations who have experienced colonisation - at least, reasonably recently.

i hope you noted that i am not part of that correlation?

[Banquo's Ghost]

i hope you noted that i am not part of that correlation?

Of course. And I did say "tend" because, of course, there are many shades of grey in people's positions.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Banquo.. are you suggesting America has no history of being a colonial victim?

I was expecting such a rejoinder.

Not in the recent past, certainly. And one could argue that Colonial America (as opposed to pre-Columbus) had very little cultural heritage to steal. All your symbols of nationhood are still in your own possession.

Imagine if the War of Independence had led to a defeat. The original Declaration of Independence was taken back to the United Kingdom and used as a wall decoration in King George's toilet for a while and then consigned to a museum. Then, in 1812, freedom was finally won and the United States grew to prominence.

Do you think that there would be some measure of national feeling that the document should be returned? After all, it's just a piece of parchment.

I submit that there would be such a feeling. Even the United States, characterised as they are by many cultural memes and a focus on the future rather than the past, value their symbols - otherwise no-one would care about things like flag pins on politicians.

I am not saying this justifies all cultural claims, but that it bears consideration when countries which have suffered colonisation voice their emotional attachments to certain symbols.

BTW, it's great to see you back GC.