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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Europe

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8112581.stm
    The UK's Conservative MEPs have formed a new "anti-federalist" European Parliament bloc.

    The new European Conservatives and Reformists Group includes 55 MEPs from across eight member states.

    Leader David Cameron had vowed to take his MEPs out the centre-right European People's Party, saying its federalist views were against Tory policy.

    Shadow Europe Minister Mark Francois said the move was an "important new development in European politics".

    Biggest party

    Mr Francois promised the new group would "make a strong case for a centre/centre-right but non-federalist future for the EU".

    He said talks were continuing with other parties and he hoped more would join.
    The 54 MEPs at the moment are:

    * 26 British Conservative MEPs
    * 15 Polish MEPs from the Law and Justice Party
    * 9 Czech MEPs from the Civic Democratic Party
    * 1 MEP from Belgium's Lijst Dedecker - Derk Jan Eppink, a Dutchman who is a former senior European Commission official
    * 1 MEP from the Hungarian Democratic Forum - Lajos Bokros, a former finance minister
    * 1 MEP from the Latvian National Independence Movement - Roberts Zile, a former finance and transport minister
    * 1 MEP from the Dutch Christian Union - Peter van Dalen

    They have all signed up to a declaration, originally negotiated in Prague (henceforth to be known as the Prague Declaration), setting out the aims and values of the new grouping, the text of which is as follows:

    "CONSCIOUS OF THE URGENT NEED TO REFORM THE EU ON THE BASIS OF EUROREALISM, OPENNESS, ACCOUNTABILITY AND DEMOCRACY, IN A WAY THAT RESPECTS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF OUR NATIONS AND CONCENTRATES ON ECONOMIC RECOVERY, GROWTH AND COMPETITIVENESS, THE EUROPEAN CONSERVATIVES AND REFORMISTS GROUP SHARES THE FOLLOWING PRINCIPLES:

    1. Free enterprise, free and fair trade and competition, minimal regulation, lower taxation, and small government as the ultimate catalysts for individual freedom and personal and national prosperity.
    2. Freedom of the individual, more personal responsibility and greater democratic accountability.
    3. Sustainable, clean energy supply with an emphasis on energy security.
    4. The importance of the family as the bedrock of society.
    5. The sovereign integrity of the nation state, opposition to EU federalism and a renewed respect for true subsidiarity.
    6. The overriding value of the transatlantic security relationship in a revitalised NATO, and support for young democracies across Europe.
    7. Effectively controlled immigration and an end to abuse of asylum procedures.
    8. Efficient and modern public services and sensitivity to the needs of both rural and urban communities.
    9. An end to waste and excessive bureaucracy and a commitment to greater transparency and probity in the EU institutions and use of EU funds.
    10. Respect and equitable treatment for all EU countries, new and old, large and small."
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-26-2009 at 15:10.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    This is a very healthy development for the EU in my opinion, as it has long needed a mainstream opposition to EU federalism.

    What do you think?
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    This is a very healthy development for the EU in my opinion, as it has long needed a mainstream opposition to EU federalism.

    What do you think?
    I think the Polish members are those dreadful Kaczyński twins again.
    I think the Belgian members are far-right
    I think the Latvians are dangerously close to fascism
    I think the Dutch are reactionary homophobes

    The others seem to be run-of-the-mill rural, conservative, somewhat alarmist but mainstream parties.

    Family, God and Fatherland seems to be what they all have in common. Best of luck to the British Conservatives. Remember: in the end, the only thing national parties have in common, is incompatible national narratives and interests. Pan-national national parties don't tend to last very long.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    On the subject of the perceived purity of the EUropean political blocks:

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I think the Polish members are those dreadful Kaczyński twins again.
    I think the Belgian members are far-right
    I think the Latvians are dangerously close to fascism
    I think the Dutch are reactionary homophobes

    The others seem to be run-of-the-mill rural, conservative, somewhat alarmist but mainstream parties.

    Family, God and Fatherland seems to be what they all have in common. Best of luck to the British Conservatives. Remember: in the end, the only thing national parties have in common, is incompatible national narratives and interests. Pan-national national parties don't tend to last very long.
    Those EPP extremists and fascists in full:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_...scists_in_full
    José Manuel Barroso is cross because the Tories are leaving the Euro-fanatical European People's Party. Paul Waugh of the Evening Standard glosses the Commission President's remarks as follows:

    "Why is Cameron linking up with fringe parties, some members of which have strange views on climate change, homosexuality and race?"

    Hmm. Let's have a look at some of these "fringe parties", shall we? Here's the Deputy Speaker of the Polish Sejm rejoicing in a court's decision to deprive a lesbian mother of custody of her four-year-old daughter: "The court didn't bow to pressure from the aggressive homosexual lobby, which came to make a scene as usual".

    Here's a blatantly homophobic poster from last the Italian general election ("Daddy and Papa? This isn't the family we want!")

    Here's the first minister of Hesse calling for deportations: "We have too many criminal young foreigners... Germany has had a Christian and Western culture for centuries, and foreigners who don't stick to our rules don't belong here".

    (Even more blatant, incidentally, was that party's slogan in North Rhine-Westphalia in 2000, when it campaigned against the proposed immigration of computer programmers from India with the slogan Kinder statt Inder: "Children rather than Indians".)

    And let's not forget the Austrian party whose Secretary General recently called for the banning of burqas, adding: "If we allow consultations to be held in Turkish, we will one day become Turkish ourselves".

    What do you reckon? Acceptable partners for the modern Cameronian Conservatives?

    Well, here's the thing. All these parties are currently in the EPP. They are, respectively, the Polish Civic Platform, Forza Italia, the German CDU and the Austrian People's Party.

    Now you might object that I am quoting them selectively. You might protest that every party has its share of cranks and bigots. You might argue that a quick Google would reveal similar dirt on pretty well any party in Europe. And you'd have a point.

    But can you imagine what Labour and the BBC and the Guardian would be making of these remarks if they had come from parties whom the Tories want to join outside the EPP?

    Actually, you don't have to imagine. Ten years, the same Paul Waugh, then working for The Independent, wrote several reports about how the Conservatives were about to link up with "Italian neo-fascists". The reports were unfounded: no one had the slightest intention of sitting with the Alleanza Nazionale (which is whom he meant): as if its fascist roots weren't enough to disqualify it, the party was also anti-American, corporatist and Euro-fanatical. Not that this stopped the Indy running pompous comment pieces about "Tory extremism", and filling its pages with pictures of Mussolini.

    Well, guess what? The Alleanza Nazionale is now joining the EPP. I've been scouring the pages for the denunciations by all those who have spent the past decade raging against the rumours of a Conservative/Alleanza tie-up. At the very least, Paul himself, having made such a big deal out of it, ought to be congratulating David Cameron for walking out the EPP rather than allowing his MEPs to sit with "the heirs to Mussolini". Oddly, I can't find anything by him yet. I'm sure it's on its way.

    There is a serious point here, and it has to do with double standards. Being pro-Brussels is somehow regarded as an inoculation against the possibility of extremism. You can't possibly be a bigot, reason Leftie commentators, if you want to give more powers to the EU. (Actually, plenty of fascists have been Euro-fanatics, from the 1930s to the present day.) Do try to be even-handed, guys. There are good and bad people who oppose the EU, and there are good and bad people who support it. Any party can be caricatured through selective quotation. But being against Euro-federalism doesn't ipso facto make anyone extreme.
    Labour’s unsavory allies:
    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/ce...y-allies-.html
    Proinsias De Rossa MEP (Ireland)

    Born Francis Ross, Proinsias De Rossa is PES MEP for the Dublin constituency and former member of the IRA. De Rossa was interned by the Irish government in the late 1950s for his involvement in the IRA’s border campaign – a campaign which caused the deaths of six British policemen.

    Democratic Society Party (Turkey)

    Despite being outside the European Union, the Party of the European Socialists has awarded the Turkish Democratic Society Party associate membership of their party. According to the European Union Institute for Security Studies, it is an “obvious secret that [the Democratic Society Party] is connected to the PKK, the militant terrorist organisation headed up by Abdullah Öcalan. Following a KPP terrorist attack in October 2007, Labour’s very own David Miliband had the following to say: “The PKK is trying to destroy the Turkish government's efforts to improve the situation of people in the south east of the country, provoke conflict between Turkey and Iraq and damage regional stability... I call on the international community to be unequivocal in its condemnation of PKK terrorism and to support Turkey in restoring stability”.

    Self-Defence of the Republic (Poland)

    The Self-Defence of the Republic party claims to represent the interests of poor, agricultural workers against big business. It is more famous, however, for the erratic behaviour of its leader Andrzej Lepper, the recipient of two honorary degrees from the anti-Semitic Interregional Academy of Personnel Management which counts, amongst others, American white supremacist David Duke as an honorary professor. According to the BBC, his party anthem once featured the line "this land is your land, this land is my land [and] we won't let anyone punch us in the face" – somewhat unsurprising, given Lepper’s multiple convictions for assault. The Party of the European Socialists welcomed a Self-Defence MEP into their grouping in December 2004.

    Giulietto Chiesa MEP (Italy)

    A former communist party official and television journalist, Giulietto Chiesa has sat with the British Labour delegation in the Party of European Socialists since 2006. Over the past five years, his parliamentary activities have largely focussed around organising screenings in Parliamentary buildings of his 9/11 conspiracy theory film “Zero” which alleges that the Pentagon was actually hit by a missile and that the Twin Towers were really detonated by explosives placed inside the building. Turning to other international events, Chiesa stated his opinion that “Russia did precisely what had to be done” during last year’s Georgia crisis.
    Conservative MEPs will be in more respectable company outside the EPP:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_...utside_the_epp

    What about smearing them by association?

    Here is the resulting piece, which The Guardian inexplicably places on its front page. Apparently, a backbencher from PiS called Urszula Krupa co-signed a letter with a man called Jerzy Robert Nowak. Nowak, we learn, is a pundit on a Right-wing radio station. The report goes on: "The station is run by Tadeusz Rydzyk, a controversial clergyman who is viscerally anti-German, anti-Russian and anti-EU, peddling a daily diet of bigotry and paranoia which resonates powerfully with mainly elderly rural voters."

    Got that? Person X, a backbencher, co-signed a letter with person Y, who is connected to person Z who has offensive views. Therefore person X's entire party must be unacceptable. Therefore the British Conservatives are little better than fascists themselves.

    Grow up, for Heaven's sake! There isn't a political party in the world that can't be besmirched at fourth hand like this. If a Polish newspaper were to set out to blackguard any of the three British parties, they could come up with worse. Twenty minutes on Google would reveal all sorts of disagreeable remarks made by councillors or ex-candidates.

    Why doesn't The Guardian apply the same test to the EPP parties - or, indeed, to Labour's allies in the Party of European Socialists? Because it lowers the bar for Euro-integrationists. Support for the Brussels system serves as a charmed amulet, warding off any possible accusation of extremism.

    If you think I'm being unfair, consider this story. For ten years, Italy's Alleanza Nazionale has been described, not least by The Guardian, as "neo-fascist"; the very fact that the AN was outside as the EPP was presented as a reason to stay in. In fact, those of us who were campaigning to leave the EPP never entertained the slightest possibility of sitting with the AN. But this didn't prevent Euro-integrationists from fatuously citing the party whenever leaving the EPP was mooted: "Oh, so you'd rather join up with Mussolini, would you?"

    Well, guess what? The "neo-fascists" have now been accepted by the EPP. Having spent years castigating the Conservatives for supposedly wanting to sit with that party, The Guardian is now attacking them for refusing to do so. Funny old world, eh?
    do you know what Louis, i don't think your attempt to brand them as fringe lunatics holds much water, and your gut response is kind of predicable, as predicted here:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/david_h...new_euro_group

    good luck with that glass house.......
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-22-2009 at 14:30.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    do you know what Louis,

    your gut response is kind of predicable
    Yes, it is somewehat predictable, isn't it? Hey, you and I will never agree on the EU.

    Even so, I do hope that there will be some mainstream Eurosceptic party that takes care of your opinion. Euroscepticism is a perfectly reasonable and respectable opinion, and it is some sort of travesty that Eurosceptics have so much trouble finding a moderate voice.

    Half of me hopes not, half of me does, that the British Conservatives attend to the Eurosceptic vote. I would prefer they didn't cave in, and retained their 'enlightened' view of British interest. However, things are the way they are. There is a large, consistently Europsceptic electorate in the UK. And it is simply not properly represented by mainstream British parties. (Because the EU is a money making machine for Britain's open, internationally orientated services economy and the Conservatives know it full well)

    I should hope you will find yourself represented in the British and European parliaments.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Yes, it is somewehat predictable, isn't it? Hey, you and I will never agree on the EU.

    Even so, I do hope that there will be some mainstream Eurosceptic party that takes care of your opinion. Euroscepticism is a perfectly reasonable and respectable opinion, and it is some sort of travesty that Eurosceptics have so much trouble finding a moderate voice.

    Half of me hopes not, half of me does, that the British Conservatives attend to the Eurosceptic vote. I would prefer they didn't cave in, and retained their 'enlightened' view of British interest. However, things are the way they are. There is a large, consistently Europsceptic electorate in the UK. And it is simply not properly represented by mainstream British parties. (Because the EU is a money making machine for Britain's open, internationally orientated services economy and the Conservatives know it full well)

    I should hope you will find yourself represented in the British and European parliaments.
    no, probably not. :)

    that is the nature of representative politics, so yes it is indeed marvelous that i find there to be a EU political grouping that is more representative of my views.

    are you insinuating once again that were we to leave then the EU would revoke free-trade, as if it were some kind of enlightened gift to be bestowed by a benevolent EU, rather than the natural order of things?

    cheers, me too.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-22-2009 at 13:28.
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    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Yes, it is somewehat predictable, isn't it? Hey, you and I will never agree on the EU.

    Even so, I do hope that there will be some mainstream Eurosceptic party that takes care of your opinion. Euroscepticism is a perfectly reasonable and respectable opinion, and it is some sort of travesty that Eurosceptics have so much trouble finding a moderate voice.

    I should hope you will find yourself represented in the British and European parliaments.
    Completely agreed. I find it kind of disturbing that most euroseptic parties/groups are always radicals. Neither the moderate left nor the moderate right achieved to give birth to a reasonable and respectable euroseptic movement.

    I personnally think the EU has a damn lot of flaws (though I'm all for an european confederation or federation), but the debate about the EU is nothing but a white/black oversimplified manicheism. You either have to support the EU or be against it, and there's at the moment no middle-ground. Not a single shade of grey.

    As for the party itself, I'm not surprised that Britishs and Poles form the largest part of it. I'm wondering why both countries begged so hard to enter the EU, but I'm also confident nobody could explain this.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    [..] it is some sort of travesty that Eurosceptics have so much trouble finding a moderate voice.
    That's because it is a retrograde view. In fact the quip about 'racist flat-earthers' comes very close. What the racist part doesn't cover, the flat earth part does. One reason why such extremes are more likely to gain votes in nations like Britain and Poland is probably that those nations feel more aggrieved about past losses and present strategic insecurities. I am convinced that if the EU would support Poland more firmly every time it is being bullied by Russia this would go a long way toward appeasing Polish anti-EU sentiments. This would of course require a firmer and more united EU policy. Alas, as long as Germany and Italy appease Russia in the interest of their energy provision and France and Great Britain prefer to look the other way, we will never have such a policy.

    Like I said, it's this 'Europe of the states' that never amounts to anything beyond the cumulative self-interest of its member states. A different make-up, centered on a Commission with parliamentary accountability, should bring much-needed change. I am sorry to disappoint our member from Finland who maintains that 'Europe' is like a sacred cow and you're either for or against it. I regard it as the only chance to preserve our values and way of life, but if we want it to be just that, it needs a lot of reforming.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    On the subject of the perceived purity of the EUropean political blocks:
    Proinsias De Rossa MEP (Ireland)

    Born Francis Ross, Proinsias De Rossa is PES MEP for the Dublin constituency and former member of the IRA. De Rossa was interned by the Irish government in the late 1950s for his involvement in the IRA’s border campaign – a campaign which caused the deaths of six British policemen.
    While this is correct in the facts of his early career it is incorrret to state this is still De Rossa's pollitical motivation today.

    He was interned as a member of the repulican movement at the time.

    After the split between Official Sinn Fein and Provisonal Sinn Fein he took the Official side.

    Official Sinn Fein then became the Workers Party which would have been a republican socialist movement calling for soviet still policies etc

    A member of the Workers Party he eventually left to found a party called Democratic Left. This was due to tension between so called reformers and old style hardliners in the party.

    Democratic Left later joined with the Labour Party.

    De Rossa is essentially someone who had is own views evolve over the years to more centre left style politics from hard left socialism.

    Far be it from me to defend him he is after all a member of the Labour Party which I dislike as a party but dont paint the poor man as some kind of terrorist when a simple wikipedia search could give a simple bio of the man.

    Having said all this I feel that we need more Euro conservative groupings in order to create a more representative parliment just like our own societies at large.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    While this is correct in the facts of his early career it is incorrret to state this is still De Rossa's pollitical motivation today.

    He was interned as a member of the repulican movement at the time.

    After the split between Official Sinn Fein and Provisonal Sinn Fein he took the Official side.

    Official Sinn Fein then became the Workers Party which would have been a republican socialist movement calling for soviet still policies etc

    A member of the Workers Party he eventually left to found a party called Democratic Left. This was due to tension between so called reformers and old style hardliners in the party.

    Democratic Left later joined with the Labour Party.

    De Rossa is essentially someone who had is own views evolve over the years to more centre left style politics from hard left socialism.

    Far be it from me to defend him he is after all a member of the Labour Party which I dislike as a party but dont paint the poor man as some kind of terrorist when a simple wikipedia search could give a simple bio of the man.

    Having said all this I feel that we need more Euro conservative groupings in order to create a more representative parliment just like our own societies at large.
    fair enough, cheers.

    sounds a similar case to people getting excited about latvian MP's.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    It's what I predicted before the election. Just when they need the EU to counter a major economic crisis, the British are sending more Europhobes to Brussels in an attempt to sideline themselves. The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise, and it is going to last just as long as all the others.

    Mainstream my foot.

    EDIT
    'Racist flat earthers' made me laugh. Sorry Furunculus, the Daily Torygraph isn't very convincing.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 06-22-2009 at 12:57.
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    It's what I predicted before the election. Just when they need the EU to counter a major economic crisis, the British are sending more Europhobes to Brussels in an attempt to sideline themselves. The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise, and it is going to last just as long as all the others.

    Mainstream my foot.

    EDIT
    'Racist flat earthers' made me laugh. Sorry Furunculus, the Daily Torygraph isn't very convincing.
    Said perfectly without me having to lift a finger to write my own. Good show.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    It's what I predicted before the election. Just when they need the EU to counter a major economic crisis, the British are sending more Europhobes to Brussels in an attempt to sideline themselves. The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise, and it is going to last just as long as all the others.

    Mainstream my foot.

    EDIT
    'Racist flat earthers' made me laugh. Sorry Furunculus, the Daily Torygraph isn't very convincing.

    our wildly different opinions on the impact and relevance of this event only reinforces my conviction that EUro federalism cannot work without resorting to authoritarianism, necessary precisely because of the different cultural expectations on what national electorates expect from their society.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-22-2009 at 13:06.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    our wildly different opinions on the impact and relevance of this event only reinforces my conviction that EUro federalism cannot work without resorting to authoritarianism, necessary precisely because of the different cultural expectations on what national electorates expect from their society.
    As non sequiturs go, this is a real beauty. Because you and I hold different opinions, Eurofederalism can only be authoritarian?

    There is a 'Europe of states' embodied by the councils of ministers and heads of state and a 'Europe of the people' represented by the European parliament. The former is much stronger than the latter, it has regularly defeated and devoured the latter because the EP is pretty toothless. The Europe of states is the authoritarian Europe because it operates in secrecy and directs the European Commission which operates in secrecy as well. That's the Europe we're talking about. If we want to make it work properly it should be made accountable to the EP. That is the way forward. Withdrawal into one's little national shell is the way backward.

    And the anti-tax platform in particular is stupid because for every euro a country invests in the EU it gets back six. At least 'we' do. If the British don't, they must be doing something wrong.

    Consider this, my good man. I particularly like number 50.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 06-22-2009 at 14:09.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise
    See that is how you counter a crisis, it looks just fine.

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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Two world wars should have taught us a valuable lesson about why we should unite...

    ...but we always end up with people like that.

    If they do not like the EU that much they should not have tried to become MEP's for crying out loud. They add insult to injury by not having realistic agendas either...
    Αξιζει φιλε να πεθανεις για ενα ονειρο, κι ας ειναι η φωτια του να σε καψει.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    Two world wars should have taught us a valuable lesson about why we should unite...

    ...but we always end up with people like that.

    If they do not like the EU that much they should not have tried to become MEP's for crying out loud. They add insult to injury by not having realistic agendas either...
    i can't speak for you, but two world wars taught me to be wary of those with a burning desire to harness other cultures under a single unrepresentative political governance.

    people like who, you have to remember that not everyone shares your enthusiasm for ever-deeper-union (read: gradual federal integration).

    they join because we are already in the EU, and they hope (just like everyone else) to reform the monlith into something their national electorate can tolerate.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  18. #18
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by rasoforos View Post
    Two world wars should have taught us a valuable lesson about why we should unite...
    Kind of ironic, then, that the last one was started by someone who did want to "unite" Europe.

    But think of something else that the powerhouses of Europe have in common besides the European Union. I think you'll find that it is a much larger reason why we have peace.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 06-22-2009 at 19:30.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Well that didn't last long:
    A final update on the Tory woes for today - Edward McMillan-Scott has been booted out of the European Conservatives and Reformists group. Hardly a surprise, given that he trashed party discipline and has accused the group leader - Michal Kaminski - of a neo-fascist past. Mr Kaminski denies that and describes himself as a "convinced conservative, a convinced democrat". He says in his youth he was a member of an anti-communist group which - after he left - then became allied to the extreme right. Mr Kaminski described himself as a friend of Israel who has been attacked by members of the far right for being pro-Jewish.

    So the day ends with the Tories no longer in control of their own group and a former Conservative leader stripped of the party whip and drummed out of the group. Who'd have thought it? Crazy days in Strasbourg!
    Yeah, who'd have thought, eh?

    Best of luck to the others the coming years!
    'Convinced conservatists'.


    ~~-~~-~~<<oOo>>~~-~~-~~


    Also, the Icelandic parliament is voting about a future EU application as we speak. Oh please, oh please.
    Despite their recent flirt with uncontrolled neo-liberalism that left the country bankrupt, Iceland is still a sober, sensible nation. It would make for a great addition. Give us another Luxembourg!
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  20. #20
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Well that didn't last long:
    Yeah, who'd have thought, eh?

    Best of luck to the others the coming years!
    'Convinced conservatists'.


    ~~-~~-~~<<oOo>>~~-~~-~~


    Also, the Icelandic parliament is voting about a future EU application as we speak. Oh please, oh please.
    Despite their recent flirt with uncontrolled neo-liberalism that left the country bankrupt, Iceland is still a sober, sensible nation. It would make for a great addition. Give us another Luxembourg!
    on the subject of ECR from Daniel Hannan:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...polish-leader/
    British Conservatives can be proud today: ours is the first Group in the European Parliament to elect an MEP from an accession state as its leader. None of the Groups which drone on about their commitment to the European ideal can claim as much.

    Michal Kaminski, of Poland’s Law and Justice Party, is my age. We went into politics at the same time, when we were in our mid-twenties. We each have two little girls of similar ages. We’re both conservatives: Euro-sceptics, free-marketeers and Atlanticists. But we might have spent our early lives on different planets. I grew up during the réveil national of the Thatcher years. Michal’s early life was spent in an occupied country. Every day, he lived with the moral shabbiness, the material squalor, the thousand petty lies of Jaruzelski-era Poland. When Michal was small, his father defected to Canada. They met once, in Michal’s teenage years, in Cuba – the only state to which they could both get visas. Michal’s father urged him to defect, but Michal replied that he wanted one day to sit as a conservative in a free Polish Sejm. A few years later, he did, although his father was sadly no longer alive to see it.

    That such a man, having led such a life, should now lead our Group, does more for European unity than any number of federalist declarations. The Europe that Michal and I believe in is one united by the spread of freedom and democracy, by commerce, by the actions of independent citizens. This is a world away from the Europe they want in Brussels, united by rules and regulations, by institutions and bureaucracies, by anthems and flags.

    When Michal made his first speech as an MEP, he hymned the praises of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, to the unfeigned horror of the EPP. He is, in short, the closest thing to a British Tory outside the Carlton Club.
    In a sense, Michal’s election was accidental. It had originally been planned that he would take a parliamentary Vice-Presidency while a Briton became the first leader of the European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR). But my erstwhile colleague Edward Macmillan-Scott decided to have a go at the Vice-Presidency himself, which upset all the calculations (Edward lost the Conservative Whip in consequence).

    This left Michal in an embarrassing situation. He is well known in Poland as a long-standing advocate of the new conservative Group. Yet he had been denied office by a renegade British Tory.

    At this stage, the two British candidates for the leadership, Timothy Kirkhope and Geoffrey Van Orden, displayed extraordinary magnanimity, withdrawing their candidacies in Michal’s favour.

    I know that Timothy, in particular, has come in for some criticism from ConHome readers, a lot of it very unfair. His behaviour over this episode made the rest of us proud to be British Tories. It was hardly his fault that Edward Macmillan-Scott had decided to run. But an injury had been done to our Polish friends by a British Conservative, and he took it upon himself to make restitution by ceding the Group leadership. He put the interests of Conservatism above his own ambitions.
    In a funny way, Macmillan-Scott has done us a great favour. No one can now argue that the ECR is a Tory front with a couple of minor parties added on for decoration. We have a leader who, while a sturdy Polish patriot, is also a committed Anglophile and Thatcherite. And the graciousness with which both Geoffrey and Timothy acted has created a mood common purpose among British Tory MEPs that I can’t remember in ten years. The best is yet to come.
    On the latter, why does it mean so much to you that Iceland should join, but not Turkey?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 07-16-2009 at 15:46.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    on the subject of ECR from Daniel Hannan:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...polish-leader/
    Ah, Hannan. Always at the forefront of things.

    Erm...the new president of the entire European Parliament is Polish. Which makes the chest-thumping about electing a Pole a bit moot.

    More importantly...Hannan's man is a sidekick of the nutcase Kaczinski twins. So this should provide for years of entertainment to come: the Brits being led now by some extremist Pole.


    Meanwhile, the European Parliament, unlike the British conservatives, is headed by a democratic Pole instead of a (former?) fascist anti-Semitic one.

    Jerzy Buzek is in the centre-right European People's Party (EPP)

    The first session of the new European Parliament in Strasbourg has been dominated by two issues: the election of Jerzy Buzek as its president and the arrival of the first far right MEPs from the UK.

    Jerzy Buzek is the living embodiment of what many people think the European Union is all about.
    He was born in Poland, in a border region which changed hands between Czechoslovakia, Poland and Germany in the chaos of World War II.

    He ended the war living and working in communist Poland - a regime that he eventually helped to bring down as a member of the anti-bureaucratic trade union Solidarity. Eventually, he became prime minister of Poland and now, aged 69, has been sworn in as the first president of the European Parliament from the former communist East.
    It has been a remarkable journey for him and for Europe, the significance of which can perhaps best be judged by a line from Mr Buzek's speech of thanks.

    "Once upon a time I hoped to be a member of the Polish Parliament, in a free Poland," he said.
    "Today I have become the president of the European Parliament, something I could never have
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  22. #22
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Erm...the new president of the entire European Parliament is Polish. Which makes the chest-thumping about electing a Pole a bit moot.

    More importantly...Hannan's man is a sidekick of the nutcase Kaczinski twins. So this should provide for years of entertainment to come: the Brits being led now by some extremist Pole.


    Meanwhile, the European Parliament, unlike the British conservatives, is headed by a democratic Pole instead of a (former?) fascist anti-Semitic one.
    yeah, i read that too.

    Whatever, he sits on a platform I and the conservatives agree with, which is an anti-federal one unlike the EPP.

    He is facist and anti-semitic, explain?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  23. #23
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    I haven't forgotten this thread, and when I have time I will reply to the responses to my last post.

  24. #24
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Whatever, he sits on a platform I and the conservatives agree with, which is an anti-federal one unlike the EPP.
    The conservatives lost out against the Polish radicals. The British conservatives are now led by a Pole whose views are best described as 'read Krook's posts'.

    It is a complete laugh. An embarrasment to the UK conservatives. They are no longer in control of their own party.

    They tried to get in bed with a pan-European nationalist alliance, against the better judgement of many in their ranks. The leader of the more doubtful part of the conservatives has now been ousted by the Poles. The other UK conservatives are towing the line and are prepared to be lackeys to their neo/post fascist continental overlords.

    This was on day one of their new party. Well done.

    Here is, of all papers, the Daily Torygraph:

    Tory-MEPs-led-by-Pole-with-extremist-past.html

    Tory MEPs 'led by Pole with extremist past'

    David Cameron's Conservative MEPs have been forced to surrender the leadership of their new Eurosceptic group to a controversial Polish Right-winger who faces allegations that he has an extremist past. In order to prevent the European Conservative and Reformist group (ECR) falling apart on the first day of its existence, the Tories handed over its chairmanship to Michal Tomasz Kaminski, a senior figure in the Polish Law and Justice Party (PiS) and a close aide to Lech Kaczynski, Poland's Right-wing president.

    Timothy Kirkhope, the leader of Conservative MEPs, was forced to drop his own plan, supported by the party leadership, to stand for the post after a Tory rebel beat Mr Kaminski in elections for the European Parliament's vice-presidency.
    #
    Related Articles

    Cameron humbled as Tories lose leadership of EU bloc
    Tory MEP Edward McMillan-Scott expelled as he stands against official candidate
    Tory MEP voices 'real concern' over new European grouping

    Edward McMillan-Scott was promptly expelled from the European Conservatives for defeating Mr Kaminski. Following the vote, furious Polish MEPs demanded control of ECR as compensation.
    The situation is deeply embarrassing for the Tories.

    Mr Kaminski will now be the public face of the new Conservative grouping as allegations that his political past has involved links to Right-wing extremists have surfaced.
    According to the office of the National Rebirth of Poland (NOP), a far-Right Polish party regarded by the US State Department as anti-Semitic, Mr Kaminski was a former student member. Mr Kaminski admitted to The Daily Telegraph on Wednesday that he had been an NOP member but only under Communism, "between 1987 and 1989". "It was a time I am very proud of, when at the age of 15, I decided to become a member of the underground against the Communist dictatorship. At the time this was a patriotic youth organisation not anti-Semitic or Nazi," he said.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  25. #25
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Also, the Icelandic parliament is voting about a future EU application as we speak. Oh please, oh please.
    Despite their recent flirt with uncontrolled neo-liberalism that left the country bankrupt, Iceland is still a sober, sensible nation. It would make for a great addition. Give us another Luxembourg!
    ah Louis, for shame, it would appear that EU membership is falling out of favour in Iceland:
    http://eunews.blogspot.com/2010/02/n...n-iceland.html

    just as daniel hannan said it would:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...-negotiations/

    :p
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life


  27. #27
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    "The Greek case is a potential turning point for the eurozone," said Rehn in the interview. "If Greece fails and we fail, this will do serious and maybe permanent damage to the credibility of the European Union. The euro is not only a monetary arrangement, but a core political project of the European Union … In that sense, we are at a crossroads."

    did we sign up to this?

    and is this not an opportunity for Cameron?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    No we didn't. But it's only a matter of time.

    And it's also an opportunity for Brown, whose wise economic leadership kept us out of the Monetary Union that is wrecking havoc on the continent. All glory to the helmsman who kept our economy and our currency afloat!

  29. #29
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    the establishment grinds into action to halt this damaging subversion of the cause:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...ul-tactic-yet/


    Critics of the European Conservatives and Reformists - the first bloc of mainstream parties in the European Parliament to oppose deeper integration - have reached a new and nauseating low. In their determination to malign the only serious Euro-sceptic opposition they have encountered in 50 years, they are accusing the ECR’s leader, Michał Kamiński, of anti-Semitism.

    Never mind that Michał is a lifelong champion of human rights; never mind that he is a keen supporter of the European Jewish Congress and the European Friends of Israel; never mind that both his grandfathers fought the Nazis. He’s a Euro-sceptic - and that, in the eyes of his critics, justifies attacking him with any weapons available, including those banned by the Geneva Convention.

    This is going to be a longer post than usual but, believe me, it’s important. The fact is that Euro-federalists are threatened by the ECR. Until now, they have enjoyed a doctrinal monopoly: every Group in the European Parliament, from the Communists to the Christian Democrats, favoured political union. Euro-enthusiasts fear that the ECR will break their cartel. No longer will a federal Europe appear inevitable; henceforth, it will be simply one among a series of competing ideas.

    From the moment David Cameron announced that he planned to establish a souverainiste alliance, the palaeo-federalists started hurling clods of manure at him. If the Conservatives left the EPP, they insisted, they would end up with Right-wing extremists.

    In fact, the ECR is more respectable than either of the two big blocs, the EPP or the Socialists. The EPP contains plenty of parties that are anti-gay, anti-gipsy, anti-immigrant or anti-American (see here). On the Socialist benches you will find Stalinist nostalgics, an old IRA man, and a 9/11 conspiracy theorist (see here). And that’s not even counting this latest incident.

    The ECR, by contrast, is moderate and restrained. Most of its MEPs are ex-ministers, economics professors, former IMF officials and the like. Five of its nine participating parties are in government in their home countries.

    Unable to associate any serious scandals with the participating parties, Euro-enthusiasts tried to smear them by association. Person X, a member of one of the constituent parties, would be found to have co-written a letter with Person Y, who worked for a news organisation owned by Person Z, who had unsavoury views. (I’m not making this up. The Guardian ran precisely such a story as its splash on the eve of the European election: see here.) Of course, there isn’t a political party in the world you can’t traduce at fourth hand in this manner.

    In order to sustain their campaign, these supposed pro-Europeans exploited differences in national political cultures in a way that was downright xenophobic. To get a sense of how tendentious their coverage has been, imagine it the other way around. Suppose a Polish newspaper set out to defame the British Tories. Suppose, further, that it did so by running stories about how about how the “anti-Catholic Conservative Party”, which had long opposed giving Roman Catholics the right to vote, supported annual demonstrations of sectarianism in which effigies of Catholics - sometimes of the Pope himself - were burned on bonfires while cheering mobs let off fireworks.

    That, I’m afraid, is what (mutatis mutandis) some British newspapers are doing. How often have you read that our Latvian allies “attend commemorations of Waffen SS veterans”? In fact, Latvia holds an annual ceremony to honour all those who died fighting the Soviet Union. Some of the soldiers had indeed been conscripted - often against their will - into the German army. But the ceremony is for all who took up arms, and is attended by representatives of every party in Latvia except those that speak for the Russian minority. Let me repeat that: it is attended by every party in Latvia, from the Greens to the Christian Democrats. But, obviously, it would never do to criticise these other parties: they’re pro-Brussels, you see.

    Which brings me to Michał Kamiński. I’ve written about Michał before. He’s an Anglophile and a free-marketeer, who learned English by listening to Margaret Thatcher’s speeches on the BBC World Service. He spent his teenage years in underground anti-Communist movement. His record has been consistently pro-America and pro-Israel, and he has been a defender of civic freedoms, political pluralism and religious toleration. Yet Michał is now being smeared on the preposterous grounds of being anti-Jewish.

    Before turning to the substance of the allegations, it’s worth considering who is making them and why. Three pieces have appeared within the past 24 hours, all making a similar point: this one in The Independent by the Labour MP Denis Macshane; this in The Guardian by Tim Garton-Ash; and this in The New Statesman by James Macintyre. None of these authors would pretend to be disinterested. Denis Macshane is a thoroughly likeable sort: one of those rare pro-Europeans who genuinely knows about other countries. He is also, as he would be the first to own, a Euro-zealot, who has a particular bee in his bonnet about the Tories being “xenophobic“. I’ve never met Professor Garton Ash, but I read him every week. He’s plainly a clever and knowledgeable man - he must, for example, know how unfounded are his constant digs about David Cameron’s “Latvian legion”. But he wouldn’t pretend, either, to be impartial about European integration. James Macintyre is the only one of the three who is a journalist, and he is widely recognised as, first and foremost, a Labour spin-doctor: Guido has the full charge-sheet here.

    Beyond some very nasty name-calling, the articles make three concrete accusations against Michał: that he was once a member of the National Revival of Poland (NOP); that he campaigned against offering an official apology for the 1941 Jedwabne pogrom - a particularly horrible atrocity, even by the standards of Nazi-occupied Poland; and, according to Denis Macshane, that “Kaminski was part of the European National Front under the leadership of the Italian fascist Roberto Fiore”.

    The only one of these accusations with any basis in fact is the first. When Michał was 14 years old, he joined the first anti-Communist movement he found. This was a time when there was no open opposition, and all sorts of people, some of them very unsavoury, were thrown together in the struggle for national independence. When democracy came, the parties sorted themselves out along more recognisable ideological lines, and the NOP became a fully-fledged racist and anti-Jewish movement. But Michał had left by then: he walked out before his eighteenth birthday.

    The second accusation, that Michał lined up with anti-Semites over the Jedwabne massacre, is a grotesque distortion. In 2001, the President, a former Communist, proposed to offer a national apology for the crime. Michał argued that collective guilt diminished individual guilt. If crimes were said to have been a product of their place and time, then the responsibility of the criminals who had chosen to commit them was reduced. The Jedwabne massacre, he said, was not an offence by “the Poles” against “the Jews”, but by some guilty people against some innocent people. The victims, too, had been Polish citizens, recognised as such by the government-in-exile, although declared stateless by the Nazis. Blame, in all such cases, should attach to the actual malefactors. If the Communists wanted to apologise for something for which they had in fact been responsible, he added, why not apologise for their anti-Semitic campaign of 1968?

    Now you can argue back and forth about collective guilt. As a conservative, I dislike the notion of group identity and believe that we must all answer for our actions, though I can see a contrary argument. What is truly scandalous is to suggest that Michał made light of the enormity of what had happened, or sought to play down the shame of the Holocaust in Poland.

    As for the third allegation, made only by Denis MacShane, that Michał was a member of the 0penly fascist European National Front, either Denis knows something that no one else does, or the Indy may soon need a good lawyer.

    What is perhaps most disturbing about the whole saga is the casual bigotry displayed by Michał’s detractors. Underpinning much of the coverage is the matter-of-fact assumption that, if you scratch a Polish Catholic, you’ll probably find an anti-Semite. Which is odd, really, given that prejudice is what the critics are notionally complaining about. And which, more to the point, is nonsense. Michał’s party, Law and Justice, is opposed to all forms of religious or racial discrimination. His boss, President Kaczyński, was the first Polish head of state to attend a service in a synagogue, and has been described by the liberal Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz as “long a friend to the Jewish community”. (To be fair, Garton Ash’s piece acknowledges this.)

    Indeed, Michał is more accustomed to being attacked for being too pro-Likud. (I shouldn’t be surprised if his critics switch to this line next: they don’t seem especially interested in consistency.) He has long campaigned for the interests of Polish Jews. I remember a local council in his constituency passing a resolution against him because he had faced up to a genuinely anti-Semitic Polish MEP.

    Imagine how Michał must feel when he reads these articles in the newspapers of a nation he has long admired. Accusations of anti-Semitism should be made, as the Prayer Book says of matrimony, “reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly”. To brandish the charge about as part of a petty domestic quarrel is disgusting.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 07-31-2009 at 09:04.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  30. #30

    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    the establishment grinds into action to halt this damaging subversion of the cause:
    So you have a none affiliated Britishconservative MEP writing a rebutal article about the Guardian to the claims about Kaminski being a fascist and anti-semite, then along comes another British conservative MEP who calls Kaminski a fascist and anti-semite.But its OK as the Polish press who support Kaminski say he isn't completely an anti-semite, he just uses it for political advantage on occasions.

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