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  1. #1
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Where's the gain? They are side-lining themselves in the role of dodgers, blockers and naysayers. They might be able to decide some swing vote or other, but that's all.
    Eurocrat lingo, the only way to go is forward and you better not be left behind. A lot of people don't like the EU and where it's going, because, well that. And that group of people will grow because of, well that, people don't like it when their -percieved or not- common sense is insulted.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Eurocrat lingo, the only way to go is forward and you better not be left behind. A lot of people don't like the EU and where it's going, because, well that. And that group of people will grow because of, well that, people don't like it when their -percieved or not- common sense is insulted.
    Going forward with integration is not lingo, it is the way of today's world. The world is growing more complex and interdependent by the week and political integration at various levels is the only way to meet this challenge. You are welcome to hide in a cave, which is where isolationists belong anyway, but the rest of us should look and go forward in the sense I mentioned.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Going forward with integration is not lingo, it is the way of today's world. The world is growing more complex and interdependent by the week and political integration at various levels is the only way to meet this challenge. You are welcome to hide in a cave, which is where isolationists belong anyway, but the rest of us should look and go forward in the sense I mentioned.
    What challenge, the only challenge is what eurocrats have set out for theirselves. I don't like this leap of faith. Slapping an artificial entity on reality doesn't make reality any less complex. And then it happened, the incident on the Balkans. Europe is divided, but this time Europe has an army.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Going forward with integration is not lingo, it is the way of today's world. The world is growing more complex and interdependent by the week and political integration at various levels is the only way to meet this challenge. You are welcome to hide in a cave, which is where isolationists belong anyway, but the rest of us should look and go forward in the sense I mentioned.
    why?

    why is political integration necessary?

    i can see that some might find it desirable, but it isn't in any way necessary now is it?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-23-2009 at 10:32.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    why?

    why is political integration necessary?

    i can see that some might find it desirable, but it isn't in any way necessary.
    Exactly, for eurocrats political integration has become the goal am sich. Why, uh, well because? It's good really trust me I'm a politician.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    why?

    why is political integration necessary?
    I just told you.

    Because this world is unforgiving, my friends. I am amazed that I have to remind someone like Fragony of that; I am supposed to be the dreamer, remember.

    How many times have the Americans asked us to pull our weight in international affairs? And how many times did we have to answer that all we had was a dead weight, a community of lazy, inward-looking shopkeepers. And yes, the Napoleon reference is intentional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What challenge, the only challenge is what eurocrats have set out for theirselves.
    Oh haha, now Brussels is blamed for globalisation, Chinese expansion, the credit crunch, Pakistan's nuclear bomb and all the other challenges we face? Do you really think those challenges only exist in the minds of Brussels bureaucrats? This is getting weirder and weirder.

    If this in indicative of the new formation in European politics, we should count ourselves lucky that they will be next year's wallpaper.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 06-23-2009 at 10:54.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    I just told you.

    Because this world is unforgiving, my friends. I am amazed that I have to remind someone like Fragony of that; I am supposed to be the dreamer, remember.

    How many times have the Americans asked us to pull our weight in international affairs? And how many times did we have to answer that all we had was a dead weight, a community of lazy, inward-looking shopkeepers. And yes, the Napoleon reference is intentional.
    ah, so its fear that drives you, well that is your fear, not mine.

    and america has asked the UK to pull its weight repeatedly, and the UK always does. again, not our problem.

    if you are hoping that an EUSSR will give you the collective backbone to face the 21st century then it is a forlorn hope, that backbone is found in self-confident sovereign nation states, who if they are sensible work together when beneficial to achieve a common end.

    so again, why is political integration necessary (for the UK)?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    [..] that backbone is found in self-confident sovereign nation states, who if they are sensible work together when beneficial to achieve a common end.
    That sounds just right for 1909, not for 2009.

    And comparing my view of a democratic European Union to the USSR is just bad form, just like any silly comparison to Hitler who wanted to 'unite' Europe. It's flat-earthing of the sort that suits the Kaczyński brothers, not worthy of discussion.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    That sounds just right for 1909, not for 2009.
    why?

    why should britain let fear of a changing world warp its mentality?

    we have the second largest official defence budget

    we have the joint fifth largest economy

    our trade is split 50/50 between the EU and the rest of the world

    we have security alliances with our neighbours and the major anglosphere powers


    for what reason does britain need to be a part of a federated EU?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-23-2009 at 11:25.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Oh haha, now Brussels is blamed for globalisation, Chinese expansion, the credit crunch, Pakistan's nuclear bomb and all the other challenges we face? Do you really think those challenges only exist in the minds of Brussels bureaucrats? This is getting weirder and weirder.
    Makes you think I do. The EU will never be more than economic cooperation. As a market it can pull some weight, and speak with one voice $$ but not as a political entity. As a political entity it can limit our freedoms though, and I don't write blank cheques.

  11. #11
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Because this world is unforgiving, my friends.
    Are you suggesting that the energy crisis, the food crisis, the resource crisis, the financial crisis, the recession, the Chinese bid for global dominance, the instable and changing Islamic world, the environmental crisis - that all these threaten the stability of the spoiled Europeans more than EU national-communistic superstatism?

    Gah! No wonder you think mainstream social-democrats, centrists and democrat right are normal, and the Latvian SS clan are the fruitcakes. Sheesh.

    I say let Denmark solve its own global recession crisis, and let Portugal solve their global recession crisis, and let us solve our global recession crisis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Garton Ash
    You only have to go back to the newspaper cuttings from 2005, when Cameron first announced his leadership clincher, to see the horrified response of Timothy Kirkhope, the Tory leader in the European parliament, who is now charged with sewing together this ragbag. And ragbag is not my word but that of Sir Robert Atkins, the Conservative MEP for North West England, who in 2005 wrote to local Conservatives warning that the party would be left in "futile isolation", in the company of an "unappealing ragbag" of far-right, racist and Europhobic fringe parties. Tell us, Sir Robert, what would you call it now?
    Can you answer this question, Furunculus?

    Why did the Conservative leadership itself only four years ago (rightly) call the Polish nationalists unappealing ragbag, only to get in bed with them now?

    Don't just call TGA an idiot - show us why he is an idiot for raising this question.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 06-23-2009 at 11:23.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I say let Denmark solve its own global recession crisis, and let Portugal solve their global recession crisis, and let us solve our global recession crisis.


    Can you answer this question, Furunculus?
    Why did the Conservative leadership itself only four years ago (rightly) call the Polish nationalists unappealing ragbag, only to get in bed with them now?
    Don't just call TGA an idiot - show us why he is an idiot for raising this question.
    we have transnational institutions to assist in transnational matters, there is no need for supra-national governance in any way for the global economy to function, and there is no desire for it either unless you are one of those people that gets sticky pants over the ideas of world government touted by sci-fi authors.

    the conservative leadership (Timothy Kirkhope) did not call the polish nationists a ragbag, according to your own quote it was the MEP for NW england (Sir Robert Atkins), you are mistaken. he is an idiot for ignoring the contradiction of a right-wing EUro-skeptic party sitting in a right-wing euro-federalist bloc.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-23-2009 at 11:46.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  13. #13
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    we have transnational institutions to assist in transnational matters, there is no need for supra-national governance in any way [..]
    Oh sure, the UN and the WTO are going to save us from the Chinese power bid, the Russian energy crunch, the credit crisis or a new oil shortage.

    It's amazing. The Russian secret service is killing people in your country with polonium and Whitehall can't so much as say 'booh!' for fear of losing contracts and energy supplies. They would never pull off anything like it in the US. Gee, I wonder why that is?

    I don't know what watered-down version of sovereignty you adhere to, but it doesn't mean much to the rest of the world.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    I just told you.

    Because this world is unforgiving, my friends. I am amazed that I have to remind someone like Fragony of that; I am supposed to be the dreamer, remember.

    How many times have the Americans asked us to pull our weight in international affairs? And how many times did we have to answer that all we had was a dead weight, a community of lazy, inward-looking shopkeepers. And yes, the Napoleon reference is intentional.
    Unforgiving, as in lets follow the U.S and reign in any of those idiots in the developing world who pose any sort of threat to us? Yeah sounds great, looking foreward to more Afghan type adevntures then are we? Pulling "our" weight, and "international affairs" so that translates as commiting acts of agression and U.S foreign policy...

    A nation of shopkeepers sounds good to me, better than a nation of peace keepers, at least.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Default the Magyar View Post
    Unforgiving, as in lets follow the U.S and reign in any of those idiots in the developing world who pose any sort of threat to us? Yeah sounds great, looking foreward to more Afghan type adevntures then are we? Pulling "our" weight, and "international affairs" so that translates as commiting acts of agression and U.S foreign policy...

    A nation of shopkeepers sounds good to me, better than a nation of peace keepers, at least.
    i cannot escape the impression that those who argue here for being a counterweight to the US, collective force etc, combined clout in the face of china and russia, are doing so because they fear the future, and despise what they consider their underdog past.

    what they don't realise is that europe doesn't punch at its weight because europe isn't prepared to throw a punch, and its adversaries know this. this is not the lack of a unified army, it is a lack of will-power.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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