Europe

[Beskar]

If the Media started saying a federated Europe is the best thing since sliced bread, then the majority would support it. However, the media such as the Sun or the Daily Mail only print stupid things like "They want to turn us Metric! Burn them at stakes!". The best thing I loved was the whole Gurka's living in Britain, it was the only time I saw the Daily Mail running the headline "We oppose Foreigners not being allowed to come into Britain"


Also, what I said is a medium to long term solution in regards to wages, obviously uniting in a Federal Europe would go into stages and as LittleGrizzley said, any investment we make, we will get returns on.

My biggest objection, is Kagemusha trying to imply Socialism is a bad thing.

[Kagemusha]

If the Media started saying a federated Europe is the best thing since sliced bread, then the majority would support it. However, the media such as the Sun or the Daily Mail only print stupid things like "They want to turn us Metric! Burn them at stakes!". The best thing I loved was the whole Gurka's living in Britain, it was the only time I saw the Daily Mail running the headline "We oppose Foreigners not being allowed to come into Britain"


Also, what I said is a medium to long term solution in regards to wages, obviously uniting in a Federal Europe would go into stages and as LittleGrizzley said, any investment we make, we will get returns on.

My biggest objection, is Kagemusha trying to imply Socialism is a bad thing.

I am sorry Beskar but you misunderstood me, could be my less then perfect grammar causing that. I dont think socialism is bad thing, not at all.It is a beutiful theory, but does not work in practice. Im myself a supporter of mixed economy, so i respect social issues as a binding glue that keeps the society together. But i am not an idealist and cant support something that can only work as a theory.

[Furunculus]

If the Media started saying a federated Europe is the best thing since sliced bread, then the majority would support it. However, the media such as the Sun or the Daily Mail only print stupid things like "They want to turn us Metric! Burn them at stakes!". The best thing I loved was the whole Gurka's living in Britain, it was the only time I saw the Daily Mail running the headline "We oppose Foreigners not being allowed to come into Britain"


Also, what I said is a medium to long term solution in regards to wages, obviously uniting in a Federal Europe would go into stages and as LittleGrizzley said, any investment we make, we will get returns on.

My biggest objection, is Kagemusha trying to imply Socialism is a bad thing.

you realise that is a very telling trait of those in favour of progressive/lefty politics, the fact the the average man doesn't know what is good for him, and that your solution correctly applied, and given him time, will sway him from his erroneous ways on to the true path.

how about investing in britain/trading partners and getting returns on that? might be easier, will certainly be more effective.

it's not bad, it's just a little bit naive, you'll get over it. strangling puppies is bad.

[Beskar]

you realise that is a very telling trait of those in favour of progressive/lefty politics, the fact the the average man doesn't know what is good for him, and that your solution correctly applied, and given him time, will sway him from his erroneous ways on to the true path.

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

Also, I love how you labelled me as progressive. It is more of a compliment than an insult.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

I'll give you the same ultimatum as I gave Amelius Paulus - you say that the average man doesn't know what is good for him. What distinguishes you from the average man?

I once thought in the same authoritarian vein. I don't anymore. As much as you hold yourself apart from the common man, eventually you will grow to realise that you are similar to him. Perhaps you are even just like him. And whatever you think, you do not know what is best for him any more than he knows what is best for you.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

Also, I love how you labelled me as progressive. It is more of a compliment than an insult.

You have no right to dictate merely because you believe you know best. Such thinking has in the past led to mass burnings of heretics for the good of the Respublica Christiana.

If you cannot make the case for the federalised EU, that is your failing. Thus far the basic arguement is that the Euopean nations cannot work together, so they need to be forced to work together.

It's a crap arguement.

[LittleGrizzly]

just curious to see if you were keen on federalism regardless of what the majority of your comrades/compatriots might think?

Well i don't know about you but i don't base my political views on what the majority of people want...

If the majority of Brits wanted trident scrapped and the defence budget shrunk would you change your views or would you stick with your views regardless of what the majority of people think...

If we are just going to base policy on majority rules we can do away with all this politics nonsense and just have referendums on every issue...

I gotta agree with Ame and Beskar to a point. I would say it is a whole lot more due to disinterest than stupidity though, i don't consider myself a great mind i am just intrested in politics... my mere interest puts me above a sizeable chunk of the population.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with your average voter. After reading Frunculus post you would assume that quote came from a socialist (or just a lefty) think again...

[Furunculus]

just curious to see if you were keen on federalism regardless of what the majority of your comrades/compatriots might think?

Well i don't know about you but i don't base my political views on what the majority of people want...
If the majority of Brits wanted trident scrapped and the defence budget shrunk would you change your views or would you stick with your views regardless of what the majority of people think...
If we are just going to base policy on majority rules we can do away with all this politics nonsense and just have referendums on every issue...
I gotta agree with Ame and Beskar to a point. I would say it is a whole lot more due to disinterest than stupidity though, i don't consider myself a great mind i am just intrested in politics... my mere interest puts me above a sizeable chunk of the population.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with your average voter. After reading Frunculus post you would assume that quote came from a socialist (or just a lefty) think again...

i think i phrased the question very ill, let me try again. the question i was trying to ask was whether you supported the current 'policy' of advancing with ever deeper union (read: federalism) regardless of whether you asked the electorate if this is what they want, and in spite of the fact that all 'anecdotal' evidence suggests they explicitly do not?

nice churchill quote, but i not sure you should read into it that he supported authoritarian tyranny because the population is too bovine to know what is good for them!

[KukriKhan]

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

Also, I love how you labelled me as progressive. It is more of a compliment than an insult.

Wow. How blatant and 'out there'.

And euro's wonder why yanks are suspicious. Beskar is a young guy. That he holds such thoughts and entertains them, tells me that the USSR didn't die , it simply got smarter, to wit: quit the shoe-banging at the UN, stop the economically-draining arms race with the US... just spread the word. The word of universal harmony. Directed by people who know what's good/best for the people.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Concur, Kukri. The older I become, the more I think up new questions and the more I realize I don't have the answers. Aside from a notably shorter refraction interval, the thing I envy the most in the young is their certainty.


I'm not all that thrilled with the increasing power of our OWN central government and would prefer some reversion to the states.


Beskar and the other EU centralists want one big happy state with adminstrative districts called France, Germany etc. Can't say as I favor that for Europe either, though ultimately its up to them not to me.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Some facts:

- The entire EU has only 25.000 employees. Or, the amount of a medium sized provincial town.
- The entire EU expenditure is less than 1% of Gross European Product.
- For every Euro invested in the EU, it is estimated that, on average, a country earns six Euros.

And euro's wonder why yanks are suspicious.

the USSR didn't die , it simply got smarter,

Directed by people who know what's good/best for the people.

The 'EUSSR' celebrated ten years of relentless pursuit of internal market: free trade, harmonisation and an removal of national protectionism - some of it hidden or undeliberate.

Extra prosperity to the cumulated value of €877 billion over the last ten years has been

created. That means €5,700 per household on average.

Here's the national-communist EU experiment:
http://collections.europarchive.org/...kingdoc_en.pdf

Beskar and the other EU centralists want one big happy state with adminstrative districts called France, Germany etc. Can't say as I favor that for Europe either, though ultimately its up to them not to me.

The EU protects the sovereignity of European nations, while simultaneously reinvigorating cross-national regionalism.

That is, the best of two worlds. France and German sovereignity is protected, Strasbourg is open to both Germans and French to live and work in.
The same goes for 'Ireland'. Irish sovereignity is protected against infringment, while the isle of Ireland is open to all Irish and others.
Etcetera. Sheer, unmitigated genius.

[Furunculus]

Some facts:
- The entire EU has only 25.000 employees. Or, the amount of a medium sized provincial town.
- The entire EU expenditure is less than 1% of Gross European Product.
- For every Euro invested in the EU, it is estimated that, on average, a country earns six Euros.

- too many already, and doing to much
- and that is 1% wasted in large part
- you mean investing in advanced western free-trade nations (to those on the inside) results in economic growth, how novel

The 'EUSSR' celebrated ten years of relentless pursuit of internal market: free trade, harmonisation and an removal of national protectionism - some of it hidden or undeliberate.

I'm all for it, so why does the UK want ever deeper union (read: federalism) again?

The EU protects the sovereignity of European nations, while simultaneously reinvigorating cross-national regionalism.

I thought NATO protected the sovereignty of european nations?
It's great that the EU reinvigorates cross-national regionalism, but why does the UK want ever deeper union (read: federalism) again?

That is, the best of two worlds. France and German sovereignity is protected, Strasbourg is open to both Germans and French to live and work in.
The same goes for 'Ireland'. Irish sovereignity is protected against infringment, while the isle of Ireland is open to all Irish and others.
Etcetera. Sheer, unmitigated genius.

I've always known that a major raison-d'etre* of ever deeper union was to stop nasty things like having other nations soldiers marching all over your own, but why does the UK want ever deeper union (read: federalism) again?


* please forgive my atrocious French

[Tribesman]

that would certainly seem to be the case.

20+ years ago participation in euro elections and enthusiasm for the EU started in the high sixities percentage wise.

after 20+ years of creeping federalism, participation in euro elections and enthusiasm for the EU sits in the low thirties.

correlation much?

Thats wierd , in your country voter turnout has remained around the same the euro elections and declined in the national elections.
Though 10 years ago Britain did get a one off big drop in turnout that would put them on the same level as the new eastern european countries this time round

[Kagemusha]

Some facts:

- The entire EU has only 25.000 employees. Or, the amount of a medium sized provincial town.
- The entire EU expenditure is less than 1% of Gross European Product.
- For every Euro invested in the EU, it is estimated that, on average, a country earns six Euros.

And you believe that in the federal state these statistics would remain the same?

[LittleGrizzly]

Wow. How blatant and 'out there'.

And euro's wonder why yanks are suspicious. Beskar is a young guy. That he holds such thoughts and entertains them, tells me that the USSR didn't die , it simply got smarter, to wit: quit the shoe-banging at the UN, stop the economically-draining arms race with the US... just spread the word. The word of universal harmony. Directed by people who know what's good/best for the people.

I don't know if you missed the post or didn't know the source of the quote. Winston Churchill (fairly conservative and a big hater of communism) The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with your average voter. I don't think the view that people are generally un educated... or at least not very knowledagable on politics is a paticularly shocking one. I know for a fact that most of my friends are clueless about politics, admittedly most of these are about 18-20 but i find even as you go up the age groups there is a shocking lack of knowledge about politics... even in the intrested...

Seamus, out of interest would you prefer the states under one national goverment with more state rights, which is something like i would want in Europe. Or 50 seperate countrys with free trade agreements and occasional overlaps in policy where the states (now seperate countrys) work together ?

[Incongruous]

I don't know if you missed the post or didn't know the source of the quote. Winston Churchill (fairly conservative and a big hater of communism) The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with your average voter. I don't think the view that people are generally un educated... or at least not very knowledagable on politics is a paticularly shocking one. I know for a fact that most of my friends are clueless about politics, admittedly most of these are about 18-20 but i find even as you go up the age groups there is a shocking lack of knowledge about politics... even in the intrested...

Seamus, out of interest would you prefer the states under one national goverment with more state rights, which is something like i would want in Europe. Or 50 seperate countrys with free trade agreements and occasional overlaps in policy where the states (now seperate countrys) work together ?

So, the best thing is to sort out your own backyard before expanding it and then realising that it's just as bad.

If people are uninterested about politics now, why the heck will they take an interest in the maze of toss which comprises the EU. Instead of lambasting your fellow taxpayers and Britons for not knowing enough, seek a solution, if they do not know enough, help them know enough. Do not use their lack of knowledge as a weapon against them or as reason to disregard their what they firmly hold as their right to have a say. Doing anything else will merely anatgonise those people who view the EU through a mist of fear and apprehension.

[Beskar]

Instead of lambasting your fellow taxpayers and Britons for not knowing enough, seek a solution, if they do not know enough, help them know enough. Do not use their lack of knowledge as a weapon against them or as reason to disregard their what they firmly hold as their right to have a say. Doing anything else will merely anatgonise those people who view the EU through a mist of fear and apprehension.

I already spoke about this, please look earlier. I recommended teaching critical thinking and how to get your own sources equipping a population with the tools to make the right choices. Also, you have to remember, talking about a Federal Europe is on a completely different time-scale, no one is saying they want it tomorrow, it simply won't work and I believe as you said, you need to deal with the backyard first.

If you want some direct answers now, how about reading this:

The biggest answer would be declaring a Consitutional Republic and creating a 5-state Federal Government of Scotland, Wales, North England, South England and Northern Ireland. Before you wonder, majority of this framework is already in place, it is just that the majority are held by unelected dangos. Using the Britain "at the top" in regards to issues that effect everything, the majority of the power is at the local level, the top is merely a bridge/framework holding everything together.

In elections, we will keep with a similar system of how MP's are elected now, but they play their part now in their areas and not in Westminster and anyone representing the areas such as North England, would have to be elected separately. The part of MP's are merely administrative function and elected people to do the job while majority of policy is done through Direct Democracy and using resources such as the Internet to engage the public more with policies. You create a system of transparency, luckily the Freedom of Information Act has done great work in this field, to prevent issues such as corruption arising. All essential infrastructural resources such as energy/gas should be re-nationalised, removing the idiocy Thatcher put in place and we work on attempting to get energy independence to prevent foreign powers such as Russian forcing its will like it does with the likes of the Ukraine on us.

As for tackling issues such as apathy and lack of political education, in schools, the main underlying policies would be taught along with key skills such as being able to verify and examine sources of information, using critical thinking skills and other things in order to equip a population of informed politically aware citizens. Other causes would start to disappear as people would see the effects of decisions and know they are being heard.


How about that for a short couple of paragraphs? Doesn't really sound as authoritarian as people accuse me of trying to suggest.

[Beskar]

If I actually said my true beliefs then people here would simply dismiss them because they are far further down the pipe-line. The idea of minimising trade-discrepancy is classed as "Out there" and "long-term" at the moment.

However, I am going to raise up some points, which show some weird contridictions or a bias.

The UK is a mess, I would also put it that the EU is a mess, the best thing to do is to stop and fix the problems....

Apologise for cutting your vote short, but I hold the same opinion, Britain is a mess, the whole idea we even still have a monarch is stupid and backwards. The idea there are MP's who stated that the public should have no say in regards to Tax Payers money and even belief they are better than the people they are serving.

you say that the average man doesn't know what is good for him. What distinguishes you from the average man?

Want the really short answer? I voted. Yes, only 33% or so of the population voted in the MEP elections and even most of them went to a complete waste. By this fact alone, the average person doesn't even bother to vote, most likely has minimum or no interest in politics and simply don't even care. Such behaviour causes mass idiocies and allows the government to get away with signing things like the Lisbon treaty without countries even having a say in the matter. Majority of this general apathy is to do with the lack of democracy in the system.

The long story is that I believe I am different for reasons, that doesn't mean I am better, it just means I am different. Like a lawyer to a doctor to an accountant. They are different but one is not better than another as a whole.

That he holds such thoughts and entertains them, tells me that the USSR didn't die , it simply got smarter

You are confusing political ideology, as I am on the opposite side to the USSR. The USSR is a totalitarian regime which believes in complete centralisation and control. I believe the power should be in the hands of the people in direct democracy system and ministers/mp's/etc are merely elected civil servants who follow the will of the people and have no power as such themselves in a sense that it doesn't create a new class. Actually, if anything, the world is coming far more like the USSR, how many of your freedoms have been curbed in the "fight against terror" ? It is like the joke of "In Mother Russia, TV watches you" now, London is the CCTV capital of the world, it brings those Mother Russia jokes to reality. Except, I am advocating a change from that, however, I am being thrown in with the Status Quo opposed to my progressive policies which defends liberties and civil rights?

Beskar and the other EU centralists want one big happy state with adminstrative districts called France, Germany etc. Can't say as I favor that for Europe either, though ultimately its up to them not to me.

I have two answers for this.

The current system of employing this, I am against, it is a guise by elites in enslaving the populations further against the will of the people. The other answer is, it can be done right where people actually have more power from it.

It is wrong to envision empowering people? It is wrong to able throw a bunch of people into one pool and go "You support the idea of a European Federation, you want to recreate the USSR!" when my policies and beliefs are drastically different and instead of attempting to see it that way, it simply gets dismissed or ignored.

You have no right to dictate merely because you believe you know best. Such thinking has in the past led to mass burnings of heretics for the good of the Respublica Christiana.

I know! I mean, Martin Luther spoke against the Catholic Church and look now, we have these protestants. You have William Wilberforce, so sure of his convictions against the British Slave Trade, even when all these people were lining their pockets at the expense of captured-africans. Thanks to his dedication, it played a massive part in ending this suffering.

Please don't use stupid examples, I can pull out loads of good ones.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I know! I mean, Martin Luther spoke against the Catholic Church and look now, we have these protestants. You have William Wilberforce, so sure of his convictions against the British Slave Trade, even when all these people were lining their pockets at the expense of captured-africans. Thanks to his dedication, it played a massive part in ending this suffering.

Please don't use stupid examples, I can pull out loads of good ones.

I used very apt examples. Luthor had the backing of his local elite, as did Huss before he was betrayed, condemned and burned. Wilberforce was an MP, it took him decades to make his case, but he did. Conviction is no bad thing, trying to ram-rod others into your way of thinking by force is a very bad thing.

That is what the Roman Catholic Church tried to do, that is was the Oligarchs of the EU are trying to do. Interestingly, both were grand plans to unify Europe and both were vehemently resisted at the grass-roots level.

[Furunculus]

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

Also, I love how you labelled me as progressive. It is more of a compliment than an insult.

a lot of people seem to disagree with your 'benign' authoritarianism:

I'll give you the same ultimatum as I gave Amelius Paulus - you say that the average man doesn't know what is good for him. What distinguishes you from the average man?

I once thought in the same authoritarian vein. I don't anymore. As much as you hold yourself apart from the common man, eventually you will grow to realise that you are similar to him. Perhaps you are even just like him. And whatever you think, you do not know what is best for him any more than he knows what is best for you.

You have no right to dictate merely because you believe you know best. Such thinking has in the past led to mass burnings of heretics for the good of the Respublica Christiana.

If you cannot make the case for the federalised EU, that is your failing. Thus far the basic arguement is that the Euopean nations cannot work together, so they need to be forced to work together.

It's a crap arguement.

Wow. How blatant and 'out there'.

And euro's wonder why yanks are suspicious. Beskar is a young guy. That he holds such thoughts and entertains them, tells me that the USSR didn't die , it simply got smarter, to wit: quit the shoe-banging at the UN, stop the economically-draining arms race with the US... just spread the word. The word of universal harmony. Directed by people who know what's good/best for the people.

Concur, Kukri. The older I become, the more I think up new questions and the more I realize I don't have the answers. Aside from a notably shorter refraction interval, the thing I envy the most in the young is their certainty.

I'm not all that thrilled with the increasing power of our OWN central government and would prefer some reversion to the states.

Beskar and the other EU centralists want one big happy state with adminstrative districts called France, Germany etc. Can't say as I favor that for Europe either, though ultimately its up to them not to me.

If people are uninterested about politics now, why the heck will they take an interest in the maze of toss which comprises the EU. Instead of lambasting your fellow taxpayers and Britons for not knowing enough, seek a solution, if they do not know enough, help them know enough. Do not use their lack of knowledge as a weapon against them or as reason to disregard their what they firmly hold as their right to have a say. Doing anything else will merely anatgonise those people who view the EU through a mist of fear and apprehension.

you realise that is a very telling trait of those in favour of progressive/lefty politics, the fact the the average man doesn't know what is good for him, and that your solution correctly applied, and given him time, will sway him from his erroneous ways on to the true path.

this is commonly known as age-acquired-cynicism, that accrues through a lifetime of witnessing well-intentioned busy bodies in government screw things up.
it tracks a similar path to those adults who start of as left-wing firebrands and end up as stolid conservatives.

maybe there is a correlation?

[Beskar]

a lot of people seem to disagree with your 'benign' authoritarianism:

What authoritarianism?

That is what the Roman Catholic Church tried to do, that is was the Oligarchs of the EU are trying to do. Interestingly, both were grand plans to unify Europe and both were vehemently resisted at the grass-roots level.

What forcing and ram-rodding?



Both of those are just pulled out the air and have nothing to do with what I have been saying.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What authoritarianism?



What forcing and ram-rodding?



Both of those are just pulled out the air and have nothing to do with what I have been saying.

You keep using the "people don't know what's good for them" line. You favour further integration over the reform despite the fact that it is not what the majoriety want.

[Beskar]

You keep using the "people don't know what's good for them" line. You favour further integration over the reform despite the fact that it is not what the majoriety want.

You haven't been reading my posts, have you? You are just seeing what you want to see.

[Furunculus]

What authoritarianism?

if you haven't figured it out from my response, and the five quotes above then attempting further enlightenment might be a tough assignment!

[LittleGrizzly]

i think i phrased the question very ill, let me try again. the question i was trying to ask was whether you supported the current 'policy' of advancing with ever deeper union (read: federalism) regardless of whether you asked the electorate if this is what they want, and in spite of the fact that all 'anecdotal' evidence suggests they explicitly do not?

nice churchill quote, but i not sure you should read into it that he supported authoritarian tyranny because the population is too bovine to know what is good for them!

Now thats a better question, my answer is probably not, If the issue was a fairly close run thing possibly but anything over 60% against then no. Though there are some thing i would try to put through as prime minister whether the majority agreed or not, who wouldn't ?

Thats the beauty of the Churchill quote... and the one from Beskar, they don't rate your average voter but neither do they support Authoritarian tyranny!

[Incongruous]

Indeed, how about investing in Britain?

The fact that Britain has lacked a leader for the past half century and has instead made do with politicians, means that the natural reaction towards yet more politicos, but this time foreigners, is bound to be negative.

What pro-Eu campaigners should be doing, is stop thinking about how best to bring up the poorer European countries to our standards, and instead looking at how to sort out the UK. By moving towards federation with what we have now, you are plotting its destruction.

The UK is a mess, I would also put it that the EU is a mess, the best thing to do is to stop and fix the problems. I would also put it that the best thing for the EU right now, is honesty and openess, allowing people to vote upon further integration is vital. Without referendums, the EU will be increasingly seen as a power hungry bunch of would be autocrats who hide behind legal wankery to get what they want. You will increasingly leave fair minded people by the way side, to be picked up by anti-EU parties.

The EU, is a long term goal, like fifty years or more, I'd say perhaps a century. You want it to work, start moving your efforts towards localised and national projects of investment. Be seen to be the ones who give, because at the moment you are seen as the ones who take and interfere with democracy.