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  1. #301
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    good article on the implications of the german constitutional ruling on lisbon, and how it may affect supra-national governance in future:
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...636706,00.html
    A good article indeed on a splendid court decision.

    Needless to say, I was very happy that the German Constitutional Court ruled 'Lisbon' compatible with the German Constitution*. It was a tough hurdle to take. Even better was that the court also insisted on improving the democratic deficit. Bless the Germans and their obsession with democracy.

    Lisbon plus the demand that the national parliament demands and accepts its European responsibility sounds like a winning ticket. Perhaps, the German ruling will be a stimulus for pro-EU Irishmen with doubts about the democratic workings of the EU. Much of which are now being adressed in Germany, worthy of study by other nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    The Lisbon Treaty verdict is a massive appeal -- no, order -- to the people's representatives to finally engage with European issues. "A lot of work and little recognition," is how Bundestag member Gunther Krichbaum once described his work on the Bundestag's European Union committee, which he chairs. Is that all that Europe means for German democracy?

    Card-carrying Europeans seem unanimous in the view that national legitimization of European decisions is impossible in the long run. A democracy consisting of 27 national parliaments would be too noisy, too slow and too nationalistic, they argue. But the Constitutional Court has neither ruled that political decisions by German government members who are on councils of ministers in Brussels need to be subject to approval by the Bundestag, nor ruled out further steps toward greater European integration. It is only trying to prevent the Bundestag from refusing to take responsibility for all these things.
    * The German constitution, from 1949, states that Germany wants to be an equal member of a unified Europe which works towards world peace.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    the establishment grinds into action to halt this damaging subversion of the cause:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...ul-tactic-yet/


    Critics of the European Conservatives and Reformists - the first bloc of mainstream parties in the European Parliament to oppose deeper integration - have reached a new and nauseating low. In their determination to malign the only serious Euro-sceptic opposition they have encountered in 50 years, they are accusing the ECR’s leader, Michał Kamiński, of anti-Semitism.

    Never mind that Michał is a lifelong champion of human rights; never mind that he is a keen supporter of the European Jewish Congress and the European Friends of Israel; never mind that both his grandfathers fought the Nazis. He’s a Euro-sceptic - and that, in the eyes of his critics, justifies attacking him with any weapons available, including those banned by the Geneva Convention.

    This is going to be a longer post than usual but, believe me, it’s important. The fact is that Euro-federalists are threatened by the ECR. Until now, they have enjoyed a doctrinal monopoly: every Group in the European Parliament, from the Communists to the Christian Democrats, favoured political union. Euro-enthusiasts fear that the ECR will break their cartel. No longer will a federal Europe appear inevitable; henceforth, it will be simply one among a series of competing ideas.

    From the moment David Cameron announced that he planned to establish a souverainiste alliance, the palaeo-federalists started hurling clods of manure at him. If the Conservatives left the EPP, they insisted, they would end up with Right-wing extremists.

    In fact, the ECR is more respectable than either of the two big blocs, the EPP or the Socialists. The EPP contains plenty of parties that are anti-gay, anti-gipsy, anti-immigrant or anti-American (see here). On the Socialist benches you will find Stalinist nostalgics, an old IRA man, and a 9/11 conspiracy theorist (see here). And that’s not even counting this latest incident.

    The ECR, by contrast, is moderate and restrained. Most of its MEPs are ex-ministers, economics professors, former IMF officials and the like. Five of its nine participating parties are in government in their home countries.

    Unable to associate any serious scandals with the participating parties, Euro-enthusiasts tried to smear them by association. Person X, a member of one of the constituent parties, would be found to have co-written a letter with Person Y, who worked for a news organisation owned by Person Z, who had unsavoury views. (I’m not making this up. The Guardian ran precisely such a story as its splash on the eve of the European election: see here.) Of course, there isn’t a political party in the world you can’t traduce at fourth hand in this manner.

    In order to sustain their campaign, these supposed pro-Europeans exploited differences in national political cultures in a way that was downright xenophobic. To get a sense of how tendentious their coverage has been, imagine it the other way around. Suppose a Polish newspaper set out to defame the British Tories. Suppose, further, that it did so by running stories about how about how the “anti-Catholic Conservative Party”, which had long opposed giving Roman Catholics the right to vote, supported annual demonstrations of sectarianism in which effigies of Catholics - sometimes of the Pope himself - were burned on bonfires while cheering mobs let off fireworks.

    That, I’m afraid, is what (mutatis mutandis) some British newspapers are doing. How often have you read that our Latvian allies “attend commemorations of Waffen SS veterans”? In fact, Latvia holds an annual ceremony to honour all those who died fighting the Soviet Union. Some of the soldiers had indeed been conscripted - often against their will - into the German army. But the ceremony is for all who took up arms, and is attended by representatives of every party in Latvia except those that speak for the Russian minority. Let me repeat that: it is attended by every party in Latvia, from the Greens to the Christian Democrats. But, obviously, it would never do to criticise these other parties: they’re pro-Brussels, you see.

    Which brings me to Michał Kamiński. I’ve written about Michał before. He’s an Anglophile and a free-marketeer, who learned English by listening to Margaret Thatcher’s speeches on the BBC World Service. He spent his teenage years in underground anti-Communist movement. His record has been consistently pro-America and pro-Israel, and he has been a defender of civic freedoms, political pluralism and religious toleration. Yet Michał is now being smeared on the preposterous grounds of being anti-Jewish.

    Before turning to the substance of the allegations, it’s worth considering who is making them and why. Three pieces have appeared within the past 24 hours, all making a similar point: this one in The Independent by the Labour MP Denis Macshane; this in The Guardian by Tim Garton-Ash; and this in The New Statesman by James Macintyre. None of these authors would pretend to be disinterested. Denis Macshane is a thoroughly likeable sort: one of those rare pro-Europeans who genuinely knows about other countries. He is also, as he would be the first to own, a Euro-zealot, who has a particular bee in his bonnet about the Tories being “xenophobic“. I’ve never met Professor Garton Ash, but I read him every week. He’s plainly a clever and knowledgeable man - he must, for example, know how unfounded are his constant digs about David Cameron’s “Latvian legion”. But he wouldn’t pretend, either, to be impartial about European integration. James Macintyre is the only one of the three who is a journalist, and he is widely recognised as, first and foremost, a Labour spin-doctor: Guido has the full charge-sheet here.

    Beyond some very nasty name-calling, the articles make three concrete accusations against Michał: that he was once a member of the National Revival of Poland (NOP); that he campaigned against offering an official apology for the 1941 Jedwabne pogrom - a particularly horrible atrocity, even by the standards of Nazi-occupied Poland; and, according to Denis Macshane, that “Kaminski was part of the European National Front under the leadership of the Italian fascist Roberto Fiore”.

    The only one of these accusations with any basis in fact is the first. When Michał was 14 years old, he joined the first anti-Communist movement he found. This was a time when there was no open opposition, and all sorts of people, some of them very unsavoury, were thrown together in the struggle for national independence. When democracy came, the parties sorted themselves out along more recognisable ideological lines, and the NOP became a fully-fledged racist and anti-Jewish movement. But Michał had left by then: he walked out before his eighteenth birthday.

    The second accusation, that Michał lined up with anti-Semites over the Jedwabne massacre, is a grotesque distortion. In 2001, the President, a former Communist, proposed to offer a national apology for the crime. Michał argued that collective guilt diminished individual guilt. If crimes were said to have been a product of their place and time, then the responsibility of the criminals who had chosen to commit them was reduced. The Jedwabne massacre, he said, was not an offence by “the Poles” against “the Jews”, but by some guilty people against some innocent people. The victims, too, had been Polish citizens, recognised as such by the government-in-exile, although declared stateless by the Nazis. Blame, in all such cases, should attach to the actual malefactors. If the Communists wanted to apologise for something for which they had in fact been responsible, he added, why not apologise for their anti-Semitic campaign of 1968?

    Now you can argue back and forth about collective guilt. As a conservative, I dislike the notion of group identity and believe that we must all answer for our actions, though I can see a contrary argument. What is truly scandalous is to suggest that Michał made light of the enormity of what had happened, or sought to play down the shame of the Holocaust in Poland.

    As for the third allegation, made only by Denis MacShane, that Michał was a member of the 0penly fascist European National Front, either Denis knows something that no one else does, or the Indy may soon need a good lawyer.

    What is perhaps most disturbing about the whole saga is the casual bigotry displayed by Michał’s detractors. Underpinning much of the coverage is the matter-of-fact assumption that, if you scratch a Polish Catholic, you’ll probably find an anti-Semite. Which is odd, really, given that prejudice is what the critics are notionally complaining about. And which, more to the point, is nonsense. Michał’s party, Law and Justice, is opposed to all forms of religious or racial discrimination. His boss, President Kaczyński, was the first Polish head of state to attend a service in a synagogue, and has been described by the liberal Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz as “long a friend to the Jewish community”. (To be fair, Garton Ash’s piece acknowledges this.)

    Indeed, Michał is more accustomed to being attacked for being too pro-Likud. (I shouldn’t be surprised if his critics switch to this line next: they don’t seem especially interested in consistency.) He has long campaigned for the interests of Polish Jews. I remember a local council in his constituency passing a resolution against him because he had faced up to a genuinely anti-Semitic Polish MEP.

    Imagine how Michał must feel when he reads these articles in the newspapers of a nation he has long admired. Accusations of anti-Semitism should be made, as the Prayer Book says of matrimony, “reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly”. To brandish the charge about as part of a petty domestic quarrel is disgusting.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 07-31-2009 at 09:04.
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  3. #303

    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    the establishment grinds into action to halt this damaging subversion of the cause:
    So you have a none affiliated Britishconservative MEP writing a rebutal article about the Guardian to the claims about Kaminski being a fascist and anti-semite, then along comes another British conservative MEP who calls Kaminski a fascist and anti-semite.But its OK as the Polish press who support Kaminski say he isn't completely an anti-semite, he just uses it for political advantage on occasions.

  4. #304
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    that's about the size of it.
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  5. #305
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Personally, I think it's great. This way, federalism can be achieved at a faster pace. That, combined with Germany's court decision should help to ensure a Federalised, Democratic Europe sooner rather than later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    timothy garton-ash is an idiot who is hopelessly out of touch with british public opinion, so beware the veracity of his pontificating on britains place in the EU.
    Well, he has spent the past 30 years studying European Politics, is a fellow of Oxford University and has written seven books; hardly symptoms of idiocy. And the fact that he is disagreeing with populists is probably another sign of intelligence. His latest article in the grauniad seems particularly relevant to this debate.

    I don't understand (Most) Eurosceptics. They say that the EU is undemocratic; which is a fair criticism, and needs to be addressed. But this somehow translates into the whole concept being flawed, and that the EU should be dismantled. Ok, fair enough. But what's your alternative? Go it alone against USA, India, Russia and China?

    Before you say anything, I'll let you in on a piece of information. In every single century during the entire history of mankind, save two, either China and India have occupied numbers one and two in terms of rank of gross GDP. The two centuries when they weren't? The 19th and the 20th, coincidentally the era when European/Western power was at it's zenith. What we are seeing with the "rise" of China and India is not some freak accident, but rather a realignment of of the natural order of the peoples. The old European nation-state is obsolete, finished. We are seeing the emergence of the civilisation state, where entire cultures are unified into single borders, single economies and single millitaries.

    Britain cannot compete on that kind of scale. Neither can France, Germany or Finland. However, should we put aside our differences and together to protect our interests at home in Europe and outside of it, maybe we can do something. We can't prevent Chindia's increasing relevance, but we can sure as Hell prevent our irrelevance.
    Last edited by Subotan; 07-31-2009 at 18:57.

  6. #306
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Before you say anything, I'll let you in on a piece of information. In every single century during the entire history of mankind, save two, either China and India have occupied numbers one and two in terms of rank of gross GDP. [..] What we are seeing with the "rise" of China and India is not some freak accident, but rather a realignment of of the natural order of the peoples.
    I'll let you in on another bit of information. In every single century before the last, horsepower was the dominant factor in transport. These days it is the combustion engine. It may have triumphed for the longest time, but when its final day comes it will certainly not be replaced by the horse again. That's because there is no natural order of transport.

    For similar reasons, which every reader can figure out for himself, there is no natural order of peoples. That's a historicist fallacy of the first order. By the way you are absolutely right that Europe should get organised (and get its house in order) in order to cope with the rise of new power blocks and changing relationships among the older ones.

    Even so, all of this has little bearing on Furunculus' post, which seems to refute accusations that the ECR is a political trash can and particuarly that Michał Kamiński is a anti-semite. I haven't had time to look into this, but since I am committed by my earlier posts I will do so. I hope other will address the substance of his post as well.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 07-31-2009 at 19:55.
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  7. #307
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Personally, I think it's great. This way, federalism can be achieved at a faster pace. That, combined with Germany's court decision should help to ensure a Federalised, Democratic Europe sooner rather than later.



    Well, he has spent the past 30 years studying European Politics, is a fellow of Oxford University and has written seven books; hardly symptoms of idiocy. And the fact that he is disagreeing with populists is probably another sign of intelligence. His latest article in the grauniad seems particularly relevant to this debate.

    I don't understand (Most) Eurosceptics. They say that the EU is undemocratic; which is a fair criticism, and needs to be addressed. But this somehow translates into the whole concept being flawed, and that the EU should be dismantled. Ok, fair enough. But what's your alternative? Go it alone against USA, India, Russia and China?

    Before you say anything, I'll let you in on a piece of information. In every single century during the entire history of mankind, save two, either China and India have occupied numbers one and two in terms of rank of gross GDP. The two centuries when they weren't? The 19th and the 20th, coincidentally the era when European/Western power was at it's zenith. What we are seeing with the "rise" of China and India is not some freak accident, but rather a realignment of of the natural order of the peoples. The old European nation-state is obsolete, finished. We are seeing the emergence of the civilisation state, where entire cultures are unified into single borders, single economies and single millitaries.

    Britain cannot compete on that kind of scale. Neither can France, Germany or Finland. However, should we put aside our differences and together to protect our interests at home in Europe and outside of it, maybe we can do something. We can't prevent Chindia's increasing relevance, but we can sure as Hell prevent our irrelevance.

    I dont understand why only options should be either federal state or dismantling EU? The monetary Union will give prosperity to all of us in the long run. I would not mind a pan European defensive pact either, but in what do we exactly need a federal state? So we could feel more powerful?
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    For similar reasons, which every reader can figure out for himself, there is no natural order of peoples.
    Woah woah woah, you totally misinterpreted me. I was using "peoples" for poetic effect in place of the word "nation", and in no way shape or form do I think certain ethnic groups are superior to others

  9. #309

    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    which seems to vainly attempt to refute accusations that the ECR is a political trash can and particuarly that Michał Kamiński is a anti-semite.
    fixed

  10. #310
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    I'll let you in on another bit of information. In every single century before the last, horsepower was the dominant factor in transport. These days it is the combustion engine. It may have triumphed for the longest time, but when its final day comes it will certainly not be replaced by the horse again. That's because there is no natural order of transport.
    *looks at feet*

    *looks back at Adrian*



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  11. #311
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    *looks at feet*

    *looks back at Adrian*

    Looks at Vladimir's automobile.
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  12. #312
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    I dont understand why only options should be either federal state or dismantling EU? The monetary Union will give prosperity to all of us in the long run. I would not mind a pan European defensive pact either, but in what do we exactly need a federal state? So we could feel more powerful?
    The monetary union means we all rise or fall together. That's not better or worse, but it means individual nations are at the mercy of the fortunes of the whole. As to a defensive pact, we have NATO already.
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  13. #313
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The monetary union means we all rise or fall together. That's not better or worse, but it means individual nations are at the mercy of the fortunes of the whole. As to a defensive pact, we have NATO already.
    And you base your statement about monetary Union on what?
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    1. Personally, I think it's great. This way, federalism can be achieved at a faster pace. That, combined with Germany's court decision should help to ensure a Federalised, Democratic Europe sooner rather than later.

    2. Well, he has spent the past 30 years studying European Politics, is a fellow of Oxford University and has written seven books; hardly symptoms of idiocy. And the fact that he is disagreeing with populists is probably another sign of intelligence. His latest article in the grauniad seems particularly relevant to this debate.

    3. I don't understand (Most) Eurosceptics. They say that the EU is undemocratic; which is a fair criticism, and needs to be addressed. But this somehow translates into the whole concept being flawed, and that the EU should be dismantled. Ok, fair enough. But what's your alternative? Go it alone against USA, India, Russia and China?

    4. Before you say anything, I'll let you in on a piece of information. In every single century during the entire history of mankind, save two, either China and India have occupied numbers one and two in terms of rank of gross GDP. The two centuries when they weren't? The 19th and the 20th, coincidentally the era when European/Western power was at it's zenith. What we are seeing with the "rise" of China and India is not some freak accident, but rather a realignment of of the natural order of the peoples. The old European nation-state is obsolete, finished. We are seeing the emergence of the civilisation state, where entire cultures are unified into single borders, single economies and single millitaries.

    5. Britain cannot compete on that kind of scale. Neither can France, Germany or Finland. However, should we put aside our differences and together to protect our interests at home in Europe and outside of it, maybe we can do something. We can't prevent Chindia's increasing relevance, but we can sure as Hell prevent our irrelevance.
    1. I'm not quite sure i follow, the creation of an anti-federal right-wing bloc will make federalism faster? Perhaps by starting an honest debate for once within mainstream euro politics over whether the people actually want a federal europe......... you may be right, but the result could easily go the other way. As to the german ruling; i support it to, it makes a strong case for national oversight and involvement in european politics, and to whatever extent european politics exists I want to see the primacy of national parliaments.

    2. No, he still is an idiot. He has not grasped after thirty years of 'study' that the demos do not feel loyalty and trust to a cratos which shares none of the history that creates the shared culture, social norms, and goals that allow trust to form and loyalty to be awarded.
    "Cameron may have helped the Polish right, but he has not served Britain. A dubious rightwinger now heads conservatives in Europe. What on earth does the Tory leader think that he's doing?"
    He is doing what he is supposed to; responding to his EUro-skeptic electorate by not housing his european political arm within a federalist euro political bloc. TGA is still trapped in a lefty mindset of distrust and fear; distrust of the irresponsible peoples within europe who will once again descend into blood and barbarism without a post nationalist political ideology, and fear that non-liberal ideologies will be storming the gates of illiberal europe unless they band together against america and asia. I don't have that distrust of people, and i don't have the fear of once again seeing my ideological champions dashed to the ground.

    3. No, the whole concept is unecessary and inherently un-demos-cratos. I say this because I believe in the sovereign nation-state. 1000+ years of co-existence and co-dependence has forged the English people, and latterly the British peoples, into a group with a shared culture, shared social norms and values, and a shared world view. Therefore I trust this body of people act in a way that I generally approve of, and to produce a governing body that will act broadly in manner that I understand and accept. Therefore I am willing to be bound by their decisions, and thus is my acquiescence to the will of the state created. I am, in short, willing to suffer the consequence of my governments actions. I share no such empathy and common history with the continental nations, therefore I have no trust that they (the EU) will act in a manner that I approve of, and thus I do not acquiesce to be governed by the EU. In short, I am unwilling to suffer the consequence of the EU's actions conducted in my name. It will never be right that I should be governed by those I do not consider my 'family', hence I will never support the EU's political ambitions.
    You know what, i'm pretty sure there are lots of people in europe who feel the same way about britain too, and that's okay, why should they want our free-booting capitalist ways interfering with their own political evolution.

    4. Referring to #2, i don not fear that Britain won't be able to compete with the rising asian titans.
    We are an innovating economy, our future wealth is tied to our ability to create value for others, not add value. That does not require a federal euope for Britain. Whether it requires a federal europe for France, Belgium et-al is a choice for them to make, not me.

    5. Again with the fear, i'm not interested.
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    1000+ years of co-existence and co-dependence has forged the English people, and latterly the British peoples, into a group with a shared culture, shared social norms and values, and a shared world view.
    Wow , what to say about that load of tripe?
    I suppose Bollox will suffice.

  16. #316
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    try harder....
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  17. #317
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    1000+ years of co-existence and co-dependence has forged the English people, and latterly the British peoples, into a group with a shared culture, shared social norms and values, and a shared world view.
    And how did it come about?

    You may recall that in 1603 a certain James Stuart descended from Scotland to London to assume the throne of Great Britain. The personal union of Scotland with England and Ireland wasn't exactly a love affair, leading to the Bishops' Wars, a civil war in Scotland, the War of the Three Kingdoms, and to James' and Charles' own excesses (both father and son allowed themselves to be rules by adventurers like Buckingham and certain Spanish and French princesses). Yet this difficult episode brought the isles together.

    I could point to similar episodes in the 'making' of Great Britain.

    I could give you the Dutch successor to the British throne whose ascent (in 1689) marked the start of a prolonged period of growth for the nation, even though he himself was scorned by part of the British public on account of his religion and alien roots.

    Or what about the ascent to the throne of a gentleman with the peculiarly un-British name of Herzog von Braunschweig-Lüneburg, Kurfürst und Erzbannerträger des Heiligen Römischen Reiches ('George' to his friends)? He was ridiculed by his subjects, the Jacobites hated him, yet he turned out to be an enlightened ruler who helped to introduce cabinet government.

    It's politics what brought yer isles together, my friend. And it's politics what'll bring Europe together. In what shape of form this will come about will be the subject of eternal discussion and dissent, but the principle, dictated by necessity as it was in early modern times, seems clear.
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  18. #318
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post

    1. You may recall that in 1603 a certain James Stuart descended from Scotland to London to assume the throne of Great Britain. The personal union of Scotland with England and Ireland wasn't exactly a love affair, leading to the Bishops' Wars, a civil war in Scotland, the War of the Three Kingdoms, and to James' and Charles' own excesses (both father and son allowed themselves to be rules by adventurers like Buckingham and certain Spanish and French princesses). Yet this difficult episode brought the isles together.

    2. I could give you the Dutch successor to the British throne whose ascent (in 1689) marked the start of a prolonged period of growth for the nation, even though he himself was scorned by part of the British public on account of his religion and alien roots.

    3. Or what about the ascent to the throne of a gentleman with the peculiarly un-British name of Herzog von Braunschweig-Lüneburg, Kurfürst und Erzbannerträger des Heiligen Römischen Reiches ('George' to his friends)? He was ridiculed by his subjects, the Jacobites hated him, yet he turned out to be an enlightened ruler who helped to introduce cabinet government.

    4. It's politics what brought yer isles together, my friend. And it's politics what'll bring Europe together. In what shape of form this will come about will be the subject of eternal discussion and dissent, but the principle, dictated by necessity as it was in early modern times, seems clear.

    1. Are you advocating war to forge a federal europe?

    2. And, what does this tell us in the context of whether the British people in the 21st century want federal governance from europe...........?

    3. And, what does this tell us in the context of whether the British people in the 21st century want federal governance from europe..........?

    4. If you consider war an extension of politics by other means, then yes, politics did bring the British isles together, again, are you advocating war to forge a federal europe?

    Two questions I ask myself about Britain's relationship to a future federal EU:
    1) Is it necessary? (will Britain see a net benefit over and above that which it enjoys now) The answer is always - No
    2) Is it desirable? (will representative governance suffer due to the disconnect between demos and cratos) The answer is always - Yes

    So it is neither necessary nor desirable. It is that simple.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 08-01-2009 at 12:49.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  19. #319
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Are you advocating war to forge a federal europe?
    What gives you that idea?

    I advocate politics. I think I made that quite clear.

    And, what does this tell us in the context of whether the British people in the 21st century want federal governance from europe...........?
    It tells us that national unity is crafted by statesman, from above, by political and/or military means.

    In hindsight such unity may seems 'natural', as it apparently does to you, but that's confusing cause and effect. Hence my reference to the personal union of 1603. Two peoples, separated by a history of bloody war and occuption, came to be united through political means.

    And this union was a necessity, even if contemporary sources rarely reflect this insight. The British would have been totally marginalised between the Habsburg and Bourbon advances on the one hand and the increasing Dutch seapower on the other. They would have been a toy of the Spaniards and would probably have had a Catholic king forced on them, regelating them to the status of a Hapsburg province.

    France was facing the same dilemma; a thoroughly divided nation had to be forged into a political and administrative unity (by Louis XIII and Richelieu) or it would have been reduced to the same status.

    Political necessity once again appears to dictate a (larger and deeper) political union, this time on the scale of the EU.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  20. #320
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    what necessity?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  21. #321
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Nothing what so ever. Europe is not threatened military threats from anywhere and common economical politics need no federal state to be successful.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  22. #322

    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    try harder....
    No , bollox is quite sufficient .
    Unless of course you can define what this mythical shared culture, social norms, values and world view you think Britons posses.

  23. #323
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    what necessity?
    We are in danger of running around in circles here. I already touched on the necessity earlier in the thread, and so did other posters.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  24. #324
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    No , bollox is quite sufficient .
    Unless of course you can define what this mythical shared culture, social norms, values and world view you think Britons posses.
    no it isn't, your statement is totally vacuous.

    it is not a british thing, it is an every nation thing.

    every nation state derives legitimacy from the fact it represents the will of its people.

    if a government does not represent the will of its people it has not legitimacy.

    try harder, please.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 08-01-2009 at 21:19.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  25. #325
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    We are in danger of running around in circles here. I already touched on the necessity earlier in the thread, and so did other posters.
    you described some reasons why the continent might like a larger federal presence, i believe i even touched on a few of them myself.

    why does britain care?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  26. #326

    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    every nation state derives legitimacy from the fact it represents the will of its people.
    Bollox
    if a government does not represent the will of its people it has not legitimacy.
    So does the will of British people regarding the Iraq fiasco mean the governemt is illigitimate?
    What about travellers?
    Does a representation of the coilition against travellers represent the will of the people and would it be legitimate?
    Honestly you are like a character off Little Britain who hasn't quite got the joke
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9V-HtcQK8w
    Wouild you prefer one of poor old Maggie faced with cultural differences to the small minded "It's British" thing .
    OK Banquo if the previous reference is too discriminatory for this forum then understand that it only applies to a very very small section of a community that most of that community wish to distance themselves from

    I understand your point, but the colloquialism used is, one believes, somewhat offensive to the community described. It is also more helpful to others in the discussion to have the more widely used, and less insulting term, employed for clarity. BG
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 08-02-2009 at 09:33.

  27. #327
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Bollox

    Does a representation of the coilition against travellers represent the will of the people and would it be legitimate?

    Honestly you are like a character off Little Britain who hasn't quite got the joke
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9V-HtcQK8w

    Wouild you prefer one of poor old Maggie faced with cultural differences to the small minded "It's British" thing .
    you might think so, i do not.

    who/what are the knackers, and how are they relevant?

    of what purpose is the video?

    no, it isn't a british thing, its an every peoples thing, except for the muppets that go in for transnational progressivism.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 08-02-2009 at 09:34. Reason: Edited quote
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  28. #328

    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    of what purpose is the video?
    Thank you, you demonstrate the point.

    who/what are the travellers,
    You Britians have a common culture and values , why don't you know?
    Is it because your claims of commonality are bollox?

    no, it isn't a british thing, its an every peoples thing
    Sop if its an evetry peopls thing then all the europeamns will have the same and you won't have any problem will you.
    Hold on its a british thing , their 1000 years of culture bollox that you was on about. So the Irish with their 800 years of british culture bollox jut didn't get it ,leave aside al the covenaters jacobites and all that , the SNP don't get it either , let alone the sonsof Glendowyer...and bugger me sideway but why were half the places in kernow last week flying the cross of St.Piran.

    To paraphrase the head of your Royle family ..."shared cultural values, world view, morals,social norms...my arse"
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 08-02-2009 at 09:37. Reason: Edited quote and poor choice of language

  29. #329
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    the establishment grinds into action to halt this damaging subversion of the cause:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...ul-tactic-yet/
    I would post a lengthy reply, but it would have to be enormous to do the topic justice. I started one, but deleted it after it still only scratched the surface yet started to go into all sorts of directions.
    As it is, I am having many lengthy threads with Cegorach - whose absense I still deeply deplore - and Sarmatian, about Eastern Europe. And with several others as well. The acculturation, and the mutual attempt at understanding the different perspectives is fascinating, frustrating and glorious alike. I must unfortunately pass upon writing anything at great length here.

    I just feel I should acknowledge that Hannan/you make a good point about cultural differences and the incorporation of new ones into a wider European perspective.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  30. #330
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post

    Sop if its an evetry peopls thing then all the europeamns will have the same and you won't have any problem will you.
    Hold on its a british thing , their 1000 years of culture bollox that you was on about. So the Irish with their 800 years of british culture bollox jut didn't get it ,leave aside al the covenaters jacobites and all that , the SNP don't get it either , let alone the sonsof Glendowyer...and bugger me sideway but why were half the places in kernow last week flying the cross of St.Piran.

    To paraphrase the head of your Royle family ..."shared cultural values, world view, morals,social norms...my arse"
    learn to read (and to spell), i said it is an every "peoples" thing, not an "everyone" thing.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 08-02-2009 at 09:38. Reason: Edited quote
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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