Europe

[Furunculus]

So then which of those countries which make the magic number do you consider good examples for a soveriegn nation to immitate as its "first duty"?

i don't care what course other nations choose to pursue. :)

[Tribesman]

i don't care what course other nations choose to pursue.

But surely if they meet your criteria of what a soveriegn nation should do then you can pick one as an example for what you want your country to do.

[Beskar]

I remember when the BNP said to voters to support Denmark in the World Cup as they were the only ones with a all white team. Amusing when you think about it, as they are the British Nationalist Party.

[HoreTore]

I remember when the BNP said to voters to support Denmark in the World Cup as they were the only ones with a all white team. Amusing when you think about it, as they are the British Nationalist Party.

Lucky for them David Nielsen wasn't good enough to be on the team then....

[Furunculus]

I remember when the BNP said to voters to support Denmark in the World Cup as they were the only ones with a all white team. Amusing when you think about it, as they are the British Nationalist Party.

why do you mention this?

[Furunculus]

But surely if they meet your criteria of what a soveriegn nation should do then you can pick one as an example for what you want your country to do.

why?

its irrelevant to me personally for exactly the reason i stated above, and its irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[HoreTore]

why do you mention this?

Because it's a good example of just how ridiculous and petty the BNP is?

[Furunculus]

agreed, it is silly, but so is the monster raving loony party.

the key connecting fact between both of the above is that neither are relevant to this discussion.

[Furunculus]

on whether Kaminski is anti-semitic, and why Mcmillan-Scott was so keen to claim he was:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...orst-kind.html

i am enjoying this, euro-politics has finally become relevant to me after nearly 20 years of total irrelevance, how sweet.

[LittleGrizzly]

About your Iraq war figures...

Surely in Germany and France you would find some regions which have a much higher than the french average support for the Iraq war... and then regions in Britian and regions in America that had less support for the war than these exception to the rule French areas...

Surely we should swop the borders around a bit so the yanks and brits can adopt these pro iraq war areas and the french and germans can adopt these anti iraq war areas... as surely those shared views mean they could work together far better than the mess we have now where there are areas hugely against or for wars but are unable to choose for themselves as thier evil overlords in Paris, London, Berlin or Washington stole the choice for them...

You know who recoiled in horror when Bush was reelected, a majority in the liberal states in the union, surely this is unworkable for America in the same way it is unworkable for Britian to be in the same union as Italy when were horrified at thier selection ?

Also I have to bring up this shared values thing, im a brit and i share very few values with you... my values would be much closer to Louis, a frenchman, or Adrian (less so though i think), a dutchman, i do share quite a few of my values with Beskar and Jag, who are Brits. But if we are to talk about shared values between the two of us (me and you) they are very few and far between. They would be so basic (e.g. murder is bad) that they would be shared by the vast vast majority all across Europe... all of our shared values are shared across Europe...

[Furunculus]

Surely in Germany and France you would find some regions which have a much higher than the french average support for the Iraq war... and then regions in Britian and regions in America that had less support for the war than these exception to the rule French areas...

Surely we should swop the borders around a bit so the yanks and brits can adopt these pro iraq war areas and the french and germans can adopt these anti iraq war areas... as surely those shared views mean they could work together far better than the mess we have now where there are areas hugely against or for wars but are unable to choose for themselves as thier evil overlords in Paris, London, Berlin or Washington stole the choice for them...

You know who recoiled in horror when Bush was reelected, a majority in the liberal states in the union, surely this is unworkable for America in the same way it is unworkable for Britian to be in the same union as Italy when were horrified at thier selection ?

Also I have to bring up this shared values thing, im a brit and i share very few values with you... my values would be much closer to Louis, a frenchman, or Adrian (less so though i think), a dutchman, i do share quite a few of my values with Beskar and Jag, who are Brits. But if we are to talk about shared values between the two of us (me and you) they are very few and far between. They would be so basic (e.g. murder is bad) that they would be shared by the vast vast majority all across Europe... all of our shared values are shared across Europe...

You mean there is variation in this world of human beans, amazing.

I don't think that's a great idea, and i pretty sure few others in any of the above nations would go with it either.

You ask those same americans how willing they'd be to sign of for some utopian world government, i don't think they'd be willing.

Yes, I share very little in common with you either, and of course if you pick out individuals you can draw some striking contrasts. That isn't what we are talking about however.
Those figures stand.
Prudish Brits disbelief that Italians can continue to elect and support Berlusconi stands.
French resistance to what they perceive as free-wheeling anglo-saxon capitalism stands.
There are national trends that arise from shared history as a result of co-developed social and cultural practices.

[LittleGrizzly]

You ask those same americans how willing they'd be to sign of for some utopian world government, i don't think they'd be willing.

How about America having some kind of crazy far out goverment which covers places as diverse as Texas, Alaska Vermont and New York. Surely the way the recoil in horror at each others selections is the same way we recoil at horror at italy's selections for example.

Those figures stand.
Prudish Brits disbelief that Italians can continue to elect and support Berlusconi stands.
French resistance to what they perceive as free-wheeling anglo-saxon capitalism stands.
There are national trends that arise from shared history as a result of co-developed social and cultural practices.

Vermont, New york and a whole bunch of other states recoil in horror at the re-election of Bush

USA is still a workable nation

Most of Wales, Scotland and part of England recoils in horror when Margaret Thatcher is elected

UK is still a workable nation

And many other examples i can't think of

Though i suppose the best response may be...

You mean there is variation in this world of human beans, amazing.

It also happens inside country's that theres variation, but no downfall of society or the countrys... USA for example is a pretty successful country...

Yes, I share very little in common with you either, and of course if you pick out individuals you can draw some striking contrasts. That isn't what we are talking about however.

This is exactly what we are talking about, and it isn't only one individual who has views similar to me im sure there are thousands who have similar views to me and then probably thousands who have similar views to you.... and then far more people in positions in between us. Literally hundreds of different viewpoints... a similar spread to what there is in Europe...

[Furunculus]

what theme are you working at here?

are you trying to convince me that a federal europe is a 'viable' project? fine, i'm convinced.

are you trying to convince me that a federal europe is a desirable project? for who i'd ask? because i certainly don't find it desirable for britain.

you have done nothing to convince me that there are not national themes to the peoples of every nation, all you've done is state that everyone is different and that everyone is the same, no kidding sherlock.

but if i like the fact Britain is generally forgiving of Israel, then i can only be glad that we don't have the population of Gaza as UK residents.

[Tribesman]

what theme are you working at here?

Could it possibly be that the theme is your common values, heritage and outlook theory is bollox?

[Furunculus]

i do not see that demonstrated.

[Tribesman]

i do not see that demonstrated.

Really?
Does this fella share your cultural views?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaxX...eature=related
OK thats not fair his family are originaly Prussian and spent a long time through the generations in the Royal Navy.
How about this bunch of home county boys, public and grammar school lot, surely you can't can't more British than that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbwE...e=channel_page
Common views, values and outlook? ....as Jim from the Royle family says...."my arse"

[LittleGrizzly]

Im generally getting at what Tibesman mentioned... that the shared heritage values ect. are not really shared all that much and the ones that we do widely share are widely shared across Europe...

Im not arguing for the world goverment, its a long term goal of mine... but I think the world is too different at the moment, for example Gaza like you said....

[Furunculus]

Really?
Does this fella share your cultural views?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaxX...eature=related
OK thats not fair his family are originaly Prussian and spent a long time through the generations in the Royal Navy.
How about this bunch of home county boys, public and grammar school lot, surely you can't can't more British than that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbwE...e=channel_page
Common views, values and outlook? ....as Jim from the Royle family says...."my arse"

what a thoroughly irrelevant post, congrats.

[Furunculus]

Im generally getting at what Tibesman mentioned... that the shared heritage values ect. are not really shared all that much and the ones that we do widely share are widely shared across Europe...

Im not arguing for the world goverment, its a long term goal of mine... but I think the world is too different at the moment, for example Gaza like you said....

tribesman isn't getting at anything, he's just wittering inane nonsense as usual.

i just say that they are more shared by the individual nations, which makes them the proper forum of representative governance as we know it, aka liberal democracy.

[Sarmatian]

tribesman isn't getting at anything, he's just wittering inane nonsense as usual.

i just say that they are more shared by the individual nations, which makes them the proper forum of representative governance as we know it, aka liberal democracy.

The fact that half of the Brits on this forum don't agree with you and people from Germany Finland, Poland... do agree with you speaks volumes but you just refuse to listen. What you're talking about may have held more importance in the past, although even than we shared more than we cared to admit, we just somehow always managed to find the stuff we disagree in.

Clinging to vaguely defined shared national values in a world where a baby is born in China and a relative living in America can get the news quicker than a relative living two streets away from hospital is pointless.

[Tribesman]

what a thoroughly irrelevant post

You claimed that people from your country have a shared view .
Your view of that is bollox and you are unable to show anything to the contrary, even your earlier attempt with opinion polls undermined rather than reinforced your position.

tribesman isn't getting at anything, he's just wittering inane nonsense as usual.

I am really hurt by your cutting comments

But its OK , Grizz gets it

the shared heritage values ect. are not really shared all that much and the ones that we do widely share are widely shared across Europe...

Though just to humour you and your neo-imperialist view .
You previously have stated (I suppose as part of your UKNDA club) that you want a big old global super navy just like Greta Brittania used to have . Given that you cannot recruit enough sailors as it is for your much diminished fleet where are you going to find all these like minded people with shared values to fill the ships?

[Furunculus]

The fact that half of the Brits on this forum don't agree with you and people from Germany Finland, Poland... do agree with you speaks volumes but you just refuse to listen. What you're talking about may have held more importance in the past, although even than we shared more than we cared to admit, we just somehow always managed to find the stuff we disagree in.

Clinging to vaguely defined shared national values in a world where a baby is born in China and a relative living in America can get the news quicker than a relative living two streets away from hospital is pointless.

yes it does have less importance than the past, but the effect is not gone and neither it is irrelevant which is why nobody wants to give electorates referendums on europe, because they will all be treated as referendums on europe which won't turn out the 'desired' result.

the point being is the difference doesn't have to be large, it just has to be there for the UK to reject a place in a federal europe if there is no net benefit to be derived. you have no benefit and a greater distance between the demos and the cratos.

[Furunculus]

You claimed that people from your country have a shared view .
Your view of that is bollox and you are unable to show anything to the contrary, even your earlier attempt with opinion polls undermined rather than reinforced your position.

Though just to humour you and your neo-imperialist view .
You previously have stated (I suppose as part of your UKNDA club) that you want a big old global super navy just like Greta Brittania used to have . Given that you cannot recruit enough sailors as it is for your much diminished fleet where are you going to find all these like minded people with shared values to fill the ships?

you haven't challenged that point at all, there have been various for you to choose from, and the poll quite adequately showed the difference between one nation with public support for the war in question and other nations that did not have public support.

What neo-imperialist view, that the first duty of the sovereign nation state is the defence of the realm, explain how that is neo-imperialist?
What purpose does your second question actually have in this discussion? The fact that pay and conditions are poor may very well be the answer is kind of beside the point, the question is nothing but a distraction.

[Tribesman]

you haven't challenged that point at all, there have been various for you to choose from, and the poll quite adequately showed the difference between one nation with public support for the war in question and other nations that did not have public support.

you mean the polls where the respondants in different countries were asked very different questions under entirely different circumstances ?
Yeah thats a good way to compare things. It adequately shows nothing.
Which is why you should have used the pre-war polls when no nation was already going to war and the peoples opinions all could be accurately gauged with the same question....but then of course the numbers would have been completely at odds with your claims wouldn't they.

What purpose does your second question actually have in this discussion?

If your views held true among the population there would be no problem filling the positions would there, there would also be no problem re-introducing conscription. Pay and conditions would mean very little as they would all think they are fulfilling the primary role of the soveriegn state

[Furunculus]

don't be so dramatic. why bring conscription into anything?

it's not needed
it's not useful
it's not wanted

pay and conditions explains a great deal, you have heard about that thing called overstretch have you not, if not then any brit on this forum will happily leave you better informed.

but again with the purposeless distraction that has nothing to do with european politics, why?

[Sarmatian]

but again with the purposeless distraction that has nothing to do with european politics, why?

Probably because you still hadn't explained exactly what those shared national values are. If they are so important, it shouldn't be so hard to define them and since you deem them so important, you must know exactly what they are. So, what I would like to know is:

1) Explanation/definition of shared British national values. Name some of them.

2) How exactly would a more federalised Europe infringe on said values

[Tribesman]

but again with the purposeless distraction that has nothing to do with european politics, why?

Because you are talking bollox and while being completely unable to show you have a point still insist you have a valid point.

[Furunculus]

Probably because you still hadn't explained exactly what those shared national values are. If they are so important, it shouldn't be so hard to define them and since you deem them so important, you must know exactly what they are. So, what I would like to know is:

1) Explanation/definition of shared British national values. Name some of them.

2) How exactly would a more federalised Europe infringe on said values

well to start:
1) Britain's prudish inability to vote in, and continue to support, a national leader like Berlusconi.
2) France's authoritarian desire to ban religious dress
3) Finland's perpetual mistrust of NATO resulting from Finlandisation
4) Ireland's desire to remain neutral regardless of justification
5) Rural Spain's bizarre tolerance for drunk driving that would be unacceptable in Britain and many other places
6) Russia's continued support of Serbia despite the fact the rest of the europe treats you as the 'aggressors'.

All of these things and many more define inescapable differences in national character, that results in different goals and a different value on achieving goals.

None of this is bad, it's just different, but national electorates expect their leaders to act in a way that 'they' approve of, so having a governing class that is more culturally removed from its electorate is always a negative thing.

This does not mean it's the end of the world, we'd get by with the odd uprising every now and then but it would mostly work, but on the other hand, why the hell should i support an idea that works against the first principle of demos-cratos when for Britain it provides no net benefit?

I do not make this judgment on behalf of other nations, merely Britain. Other nations (and peoples of those nations) may decide there is a net benefit for them to being part of a federal europe..................... good for them.

[Furunculus]

Because you are talking bollox and while being completely unable to show you have a point still insist you have a valid point.

no, you are asking irrelevant questions because you have nothing to add to a discussion on what effect, good or bad, the creation of a mainstream anti-federalist euro-bloc will have.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I agree with you, Furunculus! But then your fellow Briton Grizzly does not and I do. Which means that you are wrong. So I can't agree with you.

But if I disagree with you, it means that you are right, so I can't disagree either.

Which means that we have a paradox to trump Zeno.



Anyway, never mind the bollox. Not everything Furunculus writes is nonsense.
I can instantly tell when I am in Britain, or when I am in Sicily. One does not need to have a perfect, all-encompassing definition of national identity to claim that there is one. More important, is that national identities are seen for what they are. They are not monolithic, they are rather new, they are constructs, they are not exclusive, etcetera.
Europe is made up of many different identities, of which nationhood is only one. For example, Scotland is Calvinistic, together with the Netherlands and Geneva. France is Catholic, together with Belgium and Poland and Ireland. Catholic Ireland is Celtic, like much of calvinist Scotland and episcopalian Wales and Cornwall and catholic Brittany. Belgium shares a language with Calvinist Netherlands and Geneva and with Catholic France. And so on.

Nobody has 'Briton' as his sole identity. Every person has countless identities. 'British, Welsh, Londoner, Man Utd, protestant, Swedish father, aristocrat, gay, student, big city, ad infinitum'.

I must repeat Grizzly's statement: I really do have more in common with LG than with a 'Catholic, peasant, small-town, pensioner, pied-noir, reactionary, rugby-hating, etcetera'. Put me in a bar with him and Grizzly, and, if only Grizz would develop a taste in football, I'd rather spend my evening with the Grizz than with the Frenchman with whom I have absolutely nothing in common.


I do not want to abolish the national states. I want policy made at the level where it is most effective. That means some things must be done locally. Others at the state level. And others at the supra-national level.
For the supra-national level, I do not expect much from intensive co-operation with Syria and Burma. I do think co-operation with the UK, Spain, Hungary is viable. So let's do at this level (the EU) what is done most effectively at the supra-national level.

I know you love defense. I want defense done at the state level where it concerns national interests. I want defense done at the supra-national level where it concerns mutual and intertwined safety. I want to be in an intense alliance with other nations that share the most basic values. NATO suits me just fine in this regard. As with the EU, NATO doesn't undermine sovereignity, it protects it.
Lastly, I want to co-operate with all peaceful democracies across the globe. But since it is obvious that Japan has less security risks in common with France than Italy and the UK do, a closer pan-Atlantic alliance makes more sense.

I don't care for the bollox about Europe. I just want effictivity of policy making. Sticking with the defense theme, let Norway train polar troops, and Denmark build a navy, and Germany tanks. And then use these communally. This is more efficient than each trying to do all three itself. Yes, each one gives up the sovereign power of defending himself in all aspects. However, such is the beauty of the system, by giving up this full sovereignity, in the end their sovereignity is protected not only more efficiently, but more effectively.