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  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    The irony is that for smaller weaker countries national sovereignty is probably enhanced by entry into the EU because the rules are setup to make it so at least it is now anyway.

    I thinking specifically here of my own country we entered the EU because your own country entered it we had no choice entry to English markets for our goods is too important. However our leaders probably hoped we might be able to remove the last vestiges of economic control the UK had on us by access to an even bigger market.

    Course all it really did was increase the trade between us but hey it was a good thing for us at the time and its still pretty good now.

    Now the fun part of the ride is over and all the stuff were asked to vote on these days is more technical and quite frankly beyond this mere mortal which is why the NO to Lisbon crowd is having a field day telling lies while at the same the YES side tell us just as big a load of lies.

    I hope that the conservative grouping gets down to making the EU work better and not simply blocking I suspect they are there to work as I cannot imagine the UK is seriously considering any nuclear option.

    I said it already but strategically the UK cannot allow itself to be outside the decisions in Europe so the UK will continue to have a love hate hate relationship with the EU.
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  2. #2
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    The irony is that for smaller weaker countries national sovereignty is probably enhanced by entry into the EU because the rules are setup to make it so at least it is now anyway.

    I thinking specifically here of my own country we entered the EU because your own country entered it we had no choice entry to English markets for our goods is too important. However our leaders probably hoped we might be able to remove the last vestiges of economic control the UK had on us by access to an even bigger market.

    Course all it really did was increase the trade between us but hey it was a good thing for us at the time and its still pretty good now.

    Now the fun part of the ride is over and all the stuff were asked to vote on these days is more technical and quite frankly beyond this mere mortal which is why the NO to Lisbon crowd is having a field day telling lies while at the same the YES side tell us just as big a load of lies.

    I hope that the conservative grouping gets down to making the EU work better and not simply blocking I suspect they are there to work as I cannot imagine the UK is seriously considering any nuclear option.

    I said it already but strategically the UK cannot allow itself to be outside the decisions in Europe so the UK will continue to have a love hate hate relationship with the EU.
    you know what, you are right, but i wasn't aware that the UK was a smaller weaker country.

    probably a good reason, in your position i'd support it too (taken from the chippy point of view).

    so we weren't so bad after all.

    beyond the lies, what kind of EU do YOU want? is it a federal state, or an association of cooperating sovereign nations?

    me too. i don't want to knacker the EU, i just want to knacker a federal EU*.

    i think you overestimate the importance of the EU countries, we're on the decline economically and militarily, and the UK is still big enough and global enough to be a useful partner to those still on the up.




    * as long as we intend to be inside it.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-21-2009 at 21:16.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    ....
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-21-2009 at 21:15.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i think you overestimate the importance of the EU countries, we're on the decline economically and militarily, and the UK is still big enough and global enough to be a useful partner to those still on the up.
    I dont really see the EU ever really been anything more than an economic power the hard power the will be jealously guarded by UK and France.

    Many people still see the decline of Europe as some kind of disaster for us as people however the British Empire in terms of size and military power was massive in year 1900 and didnt exist in year 2000 yet the UK of 2000 would wipe the 1900 version off the map in every sense.

    Decline in power is not neccesarily the death of a country.

    beyond the lies, what kind of EU do YOU want? is it a federal state, or an association of cooperating sovereign nations?
    Well cooperating states of course the problem as I can see it is people have vastly differant views on cooperation across the EU as a whole
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 09-22-2009 at 02:44.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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  5. #5
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Cooperation should be achieved through free trade, a network of military alliances, and perhaps free borders. Anything much more than that is fundamentally dangerous to the national sovereignty of the nations in Europe.

  6. #6
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Cooperation should be achieved through free trade, a network of military alliances, and perhaps free borders. Anything much more than that is fundamentally dangerous to the national sovereignty of the nations in Europe.
    Like national sovereignty actually means anything more than petty people drawing lines in the sand.
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-22-2009 at 03:14.
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  7. #7
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Like national sovereignty actually means anything more than petty people drawing lines in the sand.
    It means that and so much more, though a determined internationalist will always be one regardless of how you rationalize to him.

  8. #8
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    the perils of federalisation when one country operates a financial model in which other 'brother' countries cannot compete:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...-economic-war/

    Germany declares economic war

    If there are any German readers of this blog, I would like to know what they think of the latest breath-taking provocations of German finance minister Peer Steinbrück.

    Remember that Herr Steinbrück is not a journalist, pundit, or back-bench maverick. He speaks officially for the German government and for the German nation on the international stage.

    Every assertion that he made about Britain in his interview with Stern is either factually wrong, or such a serious distortion of events that it amounts to a smear. Furthermore, it was quite threatening.

    What he said, in effect, is that Germany will marshal its forces to ensure that a chunk of the British economy is shut down - whatever the social consequences. This is the closest thing I have seen to a declaration of economic warfare in Western Europe in my lifetime.

    “There is clearly a lobby in London that wants to defend its competitive advantage tooth and nail.”

    Stern said that he sees “dark powers at work” in Britain. He accused the UK government of “doing its best” to sabotage stricter financial regulation at the G20 in Pittsburg.

    This resistance will be crushed. “We WILL effectively change the rules on the financial markets. Politics is sometimes like a locomotive which comes slowly up to full speed.”

    “The British financial industry gains 15 per cent of the gross domestic product, in Germany is it six per cent.”

    Britain is out of step with the rest of Europe in trying to keep this “advantage going.” It must “share the burden” of the financial crisis in the form of a tax on exchanges.

    “The central question is who pays the bill? It cannot be that the citizens of Europe should carry the whole cost.”

    Britain was having “an especially hard time, to put it politely”, agreeing to tougher regulation of hedge funds.

    Now, I understand that this Westphalian bully is fighting an election on Sunday, and may well be forced out of government. But let me state a few points.

    1) Britain is not blocking the G20 deal on bonus caps for bankers. It broadly supports the idea. It backs the push for greater transparency.

    2) Hedge funds had almost nothing to do with crisis as agreed by the Turner Report and the EU’s Larosiere Report. They are already well regulated by the FSA in London (unlike New York, where they are not regulated). The FSA’s hedge fund code is generally viewed as a model for others.

    3) UK financial services are 7.8pc of GDP, not 15pc.

    4) German Landesbanken and mortgage lenders got into trouble on their global ventures because they tried to extract extra profit and were badly regulated by BaFin, the Bundesbank, and Mr Steinbrück himself. Their use of Irish SIVs, etc, to conduct off-balance-sheet speculation is the direct result of bad rules (Basel etc) drawn up after earlier crisis - a perfect example of how knee-jerk regulation by ignorant populists backfires.

    5) Mr Steinbrück is the arch-cover-up artist himself. He has been resisting - “tooth and nail” - a transparent stress test of the German banks. This comes despite a string of criticisms from the IMF, OECD, and European Commission. It is blindingly obvious that he has swept the problems under the rug until after the election.

    6) Britain is in considerable trouble right now - entirely of our own making, and caused by a decade of inept government, fiscal incontinence, and excess debt. Is that a moment to kick us in the teeth? One reason why the budget deficit has exploded to 13pc of GDP is that the collapse of City profits has cut a huge hole in government revenues. There is already a brutal adjustment underway. What is the benefit of further contracting credit in the middle of severe downturn. The man is mad.

    7) In terms of morality, I don’t see much to choose between Germany’s car industry (with its stress on high-powered engines that consume scarce resources, and pollute) and the City of London. They are both core national industries, pillars of our respective economies.

    8) Angela Merkel shares the British view that “binding powers” for the EU’s new trio of super-regulators is a step too far, and a breach of Germany’s constitution.

    If a British Chancellor gave an interview on behalf of the British nation saying the German car industry should be shrunk massively, it would be viewed as a gross and gratuitous attack on Germany.

    Need I add, yet again, that the banks did not cause this global crisis. Governments around the world caused the crisis by forcing down the price of credit (Greenspan, Bank of Japan, and ECB on short rates: China et al on long rates, by flooding the global bond market) far too low for many years, encouraging debt. Banks were the instruments, not the cause. That is an elementary point that many people - including Mr Steinbrück, obviously - still fail to understand.

    The Westphalian bully likes taunting Britain. He made waves earlier this year mocking the “crass Keynesianism” of Gordon Brown at the most dangerous moment of the crisis. This prompted a formal protest by the British ambassdor in Berlin.

    Mr Steinbrück subsequently engaged in a great deal of crass Keynesianism himself, as well as outright protectionism through the Deutschland Fund. If he remains in office, he will soon have to deal with the second leg of the German banking crisis that he has so artfully dodged until now .

    We must resist Schadenfreude when that moment comes.
    do i want EU to hold financial regulation as one of its 'competences'?

    not on your nelly!
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  9. #9
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    It means that and so much more, though a determined internationalist will always be one regardless of how you rationalize to him.
    I concur
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