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  1. #511
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    ah new europe, how i love thee.

    Czechs playing silly buggers with the EU constitution until the Tories get back in:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6841622.ece
    As a champion of 'national sovereignity', aren't you at least a wee bit dismayed that the Czechs will not take this decision for themselves, but will let the Tories make it for them?


    What a bunch of spineless weaklings. I say they missed an excellent opportunity to remain silent.


    Edit, as to the other article: Yes, I too am very pleased that the German constitutional court deemed 'Lisbon' in accordance with the German constitution.
    The court also stated that the EU must be democratically accountable. This in itself is neither pro nor against further European integration. It means that either the national or the European Parliament must have clear powers of control. In other words, this verdict opens the way for a fully functioning European parliament! Yay! Now if only we could convince the sceptics and the national sovereignists to grant it these powers of democratic control!
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 09-20-2009 at 20:51.
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  2. #512
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    As a champion of 'national sovereignity', aren't you at least a wee bit dismayed that the Czechs will not take this decision for themselves, but will let the Tories make it for them?
    They are taking it themselves, instead of bowing to pressure from Sarkozy's "consequences."* Not ratifying the treaty and trying to work with other nations freely is a lot more in the vein of national sovereignty than accepting the treaty because the European Commission told you to.

    *Hopefully.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    As a champion of 'national sovereignty', aren't you at least a wee bit dismayed that the Czechs will not take this decision for themselves, but will let the Tories make it for them?
    What a bunch of spineless weaklings. I say they missed an excellent opportunity to remain silent.


    Edit, as to the other article: Yes, I too am very pleased that the German constitutional court deemed 'Lisbon' in accordance with the German constitution.
    The court also stated that the EU must be democratically accountable. This in itself is neither pro nor against further European integration. It means that either the national or the European Parliament must have clear powers of control. In other words, this verdict opens the way for a fully functioning European parliament! Yay! Now if only we could convince the sceptics and the national sovereignists to grant it these powers of democratic control!
    tribeman has asked a similar question in the past (about 8 pages back), and it displays the same lack of understanding about what national sovereignty means to me, so to answer; no i don't care about what another sovereign nation does because it is not my sovereign nation. regardless of which, it is hardly an act of weakness on their part.

    i too am delighted, because at the end of the day i want a EU that we can live with, and one that is constitutionally subservient to national parliaments is one i can live with. if germany actually enforces this ruling and other significant nations adopt the same stance then we will have made a good start towards preventing a federalised europe.
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  4. #514
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    The irony is that for smaller weaker countries national sovereignty is probably enhanced by entry into the EU because the rules are setup to make it so at least it is now anyway.

    I thinking specifically here of my own country we entered the EU because your own country entered it we had no choice entry to English markets for our goods is too important. However our leaders probably hoped we might be able to remove the last vestiges of economic control the UK had on us by access to an even bigger market.

    Course all it really did was increase the trade between us but hey it was a good thing for us at the time and its still pretty good now.

    Now the fun part of the ride is over and all the stuff were asked to vote on these days is more technical and quite frankly beyond this mere mortal which is why the NO to Lisbon crowd is having a field day telling lies while at the same the YES side tell us just as big a load of lies.

    I hope that the conservative grouping gets down to making the EU work better and not simply blocking I suspect they are there to work as I cannot imagine the UK is seriously considering any nuclear option.

    I said it already but strategically the UK cannot allow itself to be outside the decisions in Europe so the UK will continue to have a love hate hate relationship with the EU.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    The irony is that for smaller weaker countries national sovereignty is probably enhanced by entry into the EU because the rules are setup to make it so at least it is now anyway.

    I thinking specifically here of my own country we entered the EU because your own country entered it we had no choice entry to English markets for our goods is too important. However our leaders probably hoped we might be able to remove the last vestiges of economic control the UK had on us by access to an even bigger market.

    Course all it really did was increase the trade between us but hey it was a good thing for us at the time and its still pretty good now.

    Now the fun part of the ride is over and all the stuff were asked to vote on these days is more technical and quite frankly beyond this mere mortal which is why the NO to Lisbon crowd is having a field day telling lies while at the same the YES side tell us just as big a load of lies.

    I hope that the conservative grouping gets down to making the EU work better and not simply blocking I suspect they are there to work as I cannot imagine the UK is seriously considering any nuclear option.

    I said it already but strategically the UK cannot allow itself to be outside the decisions in Europe so the UK will continue to have a love hate hate relationship with the EU.
    you know what, you are right, but i wasn't aware that the UK was a smaller weaker country.

    probably a good reason, in your position i'd support it too (taken from the chippy point of view).

    so we weren't so bad after all.

    beyond the lies, what kind of EU do YOU want? is it a federal state, or an association of cooperating sovereign nations?

    me too. i don't want to knacker the EU, i just want to knacker a federal EU*.

    i think you overestimate the importance of the EU countries, we're on the decline economically and militarily, and the UK is still big enough and global enough to be a useful partner to those still on the up.




    * as long as we intend to be inside it.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-21-2009 at 21:16.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    ....
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-21-2009 at 21:15.
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  7. #517
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i think you overestimate the importance of the EU countries, we're on the decline economically and militarily, and the UK is still big enough and global enough to be a useful partner to those still on the up.
    I dont really see the EU ever really been anything more than an economic power the hard power the will be jealously guarded by UK and France.

    Many people still see the decline of Europe as some kind of disaster for us as people however the British Empire in terms of size and military power was massive in year 1900 and didnt exist in year 2000 yet the UK of 2000 would wipe the 1900 version off the map in every sense.

    Decline in power is not neccesarily the death of a country.

    beyond the lies, what kind of EU do YOU want? is it a federal state, or an association of cooperating sovereign nations?
    Well cooperating states of course the problem as I can see it is people have vastly differant views on cooperation across the EU as a whole
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 09-22-2009 at 02:44.
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  8. #518
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Cooperation should be achieved through free trade, a network of military alliances, and perhaps free borders. Anything much more than that is fundamentally dangerous to the national sovereignty of the nations in Europe.

  9. #519
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Cooperation should be achieved through free trade, a network of military alliances, and perhaps free borders. Anything much more than that is fundamentally dangerous to the national sovereignty of the nations in Europe.
    Like national sovereignty actually means anything more than petty people drawing lines in the sand.
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-22-2009 at 03:14.
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  10. #520
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Like national sovereignty actually means anything more than petty people drawing lines in the sand.
    It means that and so much more, though a determined internationalist will always be one regardless of how you rationalize to him.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    the perils of federalisation when one country operates a financial model in which other 'brother' countries cannot compete:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance...-economic-war/

    Germany declares economic war

    If there are any German readers of this blog, I would like to know what they think of the latest breath-taking provocations of German finance minister Peer Steinbrück.

    Remember that Herr Steinbrück is not a journalist, pundit, or back-bench maverick. He speaks officially for the German government and for the German nation on the international stage.

    Every assertion that he made about Britain in his interview with Stern is either factually wrong, or such a serious distortion of events that it amounts to a smear. Furthermore, it was quite threatening.

    What he said, in effect, is that Germany will marshal its forces to ensure that a chunk of the British economy is shut down - whatever the social consequences. This is the closest thing I have seen to a declaration of economic warfare in Western Europe in my lifetime.

    “There is clearly a lobby in London that wants to defend its competitive advantage tooth and nail.”

    Stern said that he sees “dark powers at work” in Britain. He accused the UK government of “doing its best” to sabotage stricter financial regulation at the G20 in Pittsburg.

    This resistance will be crushed. “We WILL effectively change the rules on the financial markets. Politics is sometimes like a locomotive which comes slowly up to full speed.”

    “The British financial industry gains 15 per cent of the gross domestic product, in Germany is it six per cent.”

    Britain is out of step with the rest of Europe in trying to keep this “advantage going.” It must “share the burden” of the financial crisis in the form of a tax on exchanges.

    “The central question is who pays the bill? It cannot be that the citizens of Europe should carry the whole cost.”

    Britain was having “an especially hard time, to put it politely”, agreeing to tougher regulation of hedge funds.

    Now, I understand that this Westphalian bully is fighting an election on Sunday, and may well be forced out of government. But let me state a few points.

    1) Britain is not blocking the G20 deal on bonus caps for bankers. It broadly supports the idea. It backs the push for greater transparency.

    2) Hedge funds had almost nothing to do with crisis as agreed by the Turner Report and the EU’s Larosiere Report. They are already well regulated by the FSA in London (unlike New York, where they are not regulated). The FSA’s hedge fund code is generally viewed as a model for others.

    3) UK financial services are 7.8pc of GDP, not 15pc.

    4) German Landesbanken and mortgage lenders got into trouble on their global ventures because they tried to extract extra profit and were badly regulated by BaFin, the Bundesbank, and Mr Steinbrück himself. Their use of Irish SIVs, etc, to conduct off-balance-sheet speculation is the direct result of bad rules (Basel etc) drawn up after earlier crisis - a perfect example of how knee-jerk regulation by ignorant populists backfires.

    5) Mr Steinbrück is the arch-cover-up artist himself. He has been resisting - “tooth and nail” - a transparent stress test of the German banks. This comes despite a string of criticisms from the IMF, OECD, and European Commission. It is blindingly obvious that he has swept the problems under the rug until after the election.

    6) Britain is in considerable trouble right now - entirely of our own making, and caused by a decade of inept government, fiscal incontinence, and excess debt. Is that a moment to kick us in the teeth? One reason why the budget deficit has exploded to 13pc of GDP is that the collapse of City profits has cut a huge hole in government revenues. There is already a brutal adjustment underway. What is the benefit of further contracting credit in the middle of severe downturn. The man is mad.

    7) In terms of morality, I don’t see much to choose between Germany’s car industry (with its stress on high-powered engines that consume scarce resources, and pollute) and the City of London. They are both core national industries, pillars of our respective economies.

    8) Angela Merkel shares the British view that “binding powers” for the EU’s new trio of super-regulators is a step too far, and a breach of Germany’s constitution.

    If a British Chancellor gave an interview on behalf of the British nation saying the German car industry should be shrunk massively, it would be viewed as a gross and gratuitous attack on Germany.

    Need I add, yet again, that the banks did not cause this global crisis. Governments around the world caused the crisis by forcing down the price of credit (Greenspan, Bank of Japan, and ECB on short rates: China et al on long rates, by flooding the global bond market) far too low for many years, encouraging debt. Banks were the instruments, not the cause. That is an elementary point that many people - including Mr Steinbrück, obviously - still fail to understand.

    The Westphalian bully likes taunting Britain. He made waves earlier this year mocking the “crass Keynesianism” of Gordon Brown at the most dangerous moment of the crisis. This prompted a formal protest by the British ambassdor in Berlin.

    Mr Steinbrück subsequently engaged in a great deal of crass Keynesianism himself, as well as outright protectionism through the Deutschland Fund. If he remains in office, he will soon have to deal with the second leg of the German banking crisis that he has so artfully dodged until now .

    We must resist Schadenfreude when that moment comes.
    do i want EU to hold financial regulation as one of its 'competences'?

    not on your nelly!
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  12. #522
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    It means that and so much more, though a determined internationalist will always be one regardless of how you rationalize to him.
    I concur
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    I concur
    It's kind of sad in a way, it is like that.

    Having "nations" is only a short-term solution, even I can understand that, you can't just suddenly combine everyone together into one massive melting pot or things would go horribly wrong. You have to do it graduately from the bottom, working itself upwards so the conditions are right. A combined Europe is only a step along a long road to the removal of irrational prolonging of national boundaries and a federal government would also play a part in bringing different aspects from others onto the same wavelength as it works upwards.

    In the future, once the Europe has been established as a state for a long time, there would be EMFM's then going "Joining together with the likes of Russia/Africa/etc ?!" steadfast against change and progression.
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-24-2009 at 19:52.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post

    In the future, once the Europe has been established as a state for a long time, there would be EMFM's then going "Joining together with the likes of Russia/Africa/etc ?!" steadfast against change and progression.
    from the EFFM's the answer would be no, because the damage is already done by that point and we don't believe there to be any european identity that we care to relate too, so nothing to lose.
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  15. #525
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    It's kind of sad in a way, it is like that.

    Having "nations" is only a short-term solution, even I can understand that, you can't just suddenly combine everyone together into one massive melting pot or things would go horribly wrong. You have to do it graduately from the bottom, working itself upwards so the conditions are right. A combined Europe is only a step along a long road to the removal of irrational prolonging of national boundaries and a federal government would also play a part in bringing different aspects from others onto the same wavelength as it works upwards.
    For the security of the individual, which you profess to love, it is better to have more than one nation.
    Nations are a natural entity. Simply unifying a continent is completely artificial, an exercise in control. It is wrong. Nationalism and internationalism are fundamentally different in this respect.

    In the future, once the Europe has been established as a state for a long time, there would be EMFM's then going "Joining together with the likes of Russia/Africa/etc ?!" steadfast against change and progression.
    If we get to that stage we're already , so what's the point? You say that I'm against progress for the sake of being against it, and you're wrong. This isn't progress. It isn't really regression, but it certainly isn't bringing anything good to us.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 09-25-2009 at 07:31. Reason: All of a profanity should be obscured

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    For the security of the individual, which you profess to love, it is better to have more than one nation.
    Nations are a natural entity. Simply unifying a continent is completely artificial, an exercise in control. It is wrong. Nationalism and internationalism are fundamentally different in this respect.
    Nationalism is artifical in itself. Before nationalism was regionalism, taking Italy for example: there were papal states, tuscany, sardinia, kingdom of the two scilies, etc. After the great unification, as famously said "Now we made Italy, now we make Italians." and over the years they did just that.

    Germany is another example, it used to be Saxony, Balavia, Prussia, Hanover, etc, then they were unified and they became Germans. These were only done in the last 100+ years or so.

    What makes it so different that it can't go larger? Why are you stuck on this level and why not advocate a return to the old system of Hanover/Prussia/Saxony/etc ?

    Why is this level so special compared to the previous and the afters?

    Is the Federation of Germany or the Federation of the United States, evil? If not, why would Europe be?

    If we get to that stage we're already , so what's the point? You say that I'm against progress for the sake of being against it, and you're wrong. This isn't progress. It isn't really regression, but it certainly isn't bringing anything good to us.
    How so? You don't qualify your point at all. Tie it into previous question I asked if you like. If I am being honest, many arguments seems just to want status quo and against change/advancement.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 09-25-2009 at 07:32. Reason: Edited quote
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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Im not sure what actually qualifies the entity as artificial or not.... but wouldn't anything outside of a family unit maybe friends be artificial anyway...

    I hardly see why a unified Europe nessecarily means more authoritarian... a few posters seem to think America is the most free country and thier not far off the size of it...

    If anything maybe they could help us cut down on CCTV cameras in the UK...

    How exactly would we be by the time Europe was unified for a bit... will society come crashing down... did Italy or Germany suddenly fall apart... how about Britian ?

    This is when we were less advanced and things were a bit more chaotic as well..
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 09-25-2009 at 07:32. Reason: All etc
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    I hardly see why a unified Europe nessecarily means more authoritarian... a few posters seem to think America is the most free country and thier not far off the size of it...
    Actually, that brings up a point. Why is United States of America the best thing since sliced bread, in your opinion, EMFM, but the idea of an United States of Europe the worst thing imaginable?
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  19. #529

    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Nations are a natural entity.

    Nations are an entity , but they are a construct not a natural.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Actually, that brings up a point. Why is United States of America the best thing since sliced bread, in your opinion, EMFM, but the idea of an United States of Europe the worst thing imaginable?
    not the best thing since sliced bread, but it exists for good or bad and they have made a good job of existing ever since.
    lots of compromises happened in order to allow the US to exist, including disenfranchising the native inhabitants and various wars with neighbours and reluctant statelings.

    the problem with a federal EU is that their is no tangible benefit to offset the many compromises that its creation would entail.

    so we return to my eternal question: why is it necessary?
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    so we return to my eternal question: why is it necessary?
    Why is it necessary to work? (free dole money, yay!)

    Why technological advancement necessary? (Honey, blow that candle out.)

    Why is it necessary to give slaves freedom? (pick me that cotton! :whiplash:)

    Why are elections necessary? (Gordon Brown)

    You can apply that statement to everything to give the appearance of discrediting, when it does nothing of the sort.
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  22. #532
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    foolish analogies.

    with all the noted costs, do the benefits result in a net positive gain for Britain.

    Gains -
    greater influence in EU trade policy
    greater influence in EU employment policy
    greater influence in EU social policy
    greater influence in EU foreign policy
    more competitive in EU trade
    better able to leverage benefit from EU group

    Losses -
    lesser influence in UK trade policy
    lesser influence in UK employment policy
    lesser influence in UK social policy
    lesser influence in UK foreign policy
    less competitive in world trade
    less able to leverage benefit from Commonwealth group

    Stay the same -
    access to the common market - don't kid yourself otherwise

    if we were Belgium then the listed gains would outweigh the losses, but we are not, and they don't. we are big enough and bad enough to forge our own path, forging agreements and common positions where it suits the British strategic interest to do so.

    i don't see a net benefit. if anything i see the result being interference in british cultural/social evolution for the purpose of 'harmonisation' which doesn't otherwise have a tangible net benefit.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-25-2009 at 12:43.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    There are many proverbs and sayings which boil down to "Money isn't everything."

    Your argument, if anything, sounds more of a typical class argument. "Pfft poff, me giving a percentage of my money which is far more in total than those civvies down at the docks, to pay for their healthcare? My boy, I am with bupa, I do not even bother with that la-de-dar stuff, leave that stuff for the lower orders, my good boy."

    Joking and friendly banter aside, it is more a individualist argument then a collectivist one, which is perfectly argumentable and on the plus side, I can actually understand your argument and points, they are quite rationale.

    However, I believe in many ways, we are cosy in a position, in a sense, our boots are better than our feet and it will come to a stage when we realise this, it could be too late (Short-sightedness, failing to see the longer-term). A power like China currently has twice the economy of France, and it is rapidy growing, they have many things individual European nations don't have, which is the land, resources and population. By combining together, in unity, it would give Europeans a greater presence on the World-Stage shifting the balance of power heavily into Europes favour, opposed to Asia/Russia/America in a way, no individual nation can do on its own.

    For pure example, the GDP of the European Union is approx: 18trill, with United States approx: 14trill. With greater unity which removes many of the inherent problems and beaucracy within the current system, and hopefully, with a new system being modelled on Swizterland's government system (I believe the plans revolved around this), it would create a very democratic and powerful super-state and easily knock the United States off its uncontested pendastal. (Along with others like Russia, etc)



    On another note, while you and EMFM are on the same side of the debate, I do believe his argument is completely different to your own.
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-25-2009 at 13:16.
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    so we return to my eternal question: why is it necessary?
    Well, your Prime Minister might not have to beg like a faintly embarrassing vassal to be allowed to kiss the ring of his suzerain before being sent back below the salt.

    However, pretending independent sovereignty exists does allow the cherishing of a "special relationship" despite the preference of said overlord to meet with people that count, like the Chinese and Russians. I like to think of it as a "precious" thrown to the useful idiots as Britain's voice grows ever weaker.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Well, your Prime Minister might not have to beg like a faintly embarrassing vassal to be allowed to kiss the ring of his suzerain before being sent back below the salt.

    However, pretending independent sovereignty exists does allow the cherishing of a "special relationship" despite the preference of said overlord to meet with people that count, like the Chinese and Russians. I like to think of it as a "precious" thrown to the useful idiots as Britain's voice grows ever weaker.
    I cringe every time that "special relation" is brought up and how Britain is USA's lapdog. With it's current strength, Britain would have a big say in a federal Europe to get things in its favour, in a rather Maggie T style, compared to further down the road where we would begging.
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  26. #536
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    1. Joking and friendly banter aside, it is more a individualist argument then a collectivist one, which is perfectly argumentable and on the plus side, I can actually understand your argument and points, they are quite rationale.

    2. However, I believe in many ways, we are cosy in a position, in a sense, our boots are better than our feet and it will come to a stage when we realise this, it could be too late (Short-sightedness, failing to see the longer-term). A power like China currently has twice the economy of France, and it is rapidy growing, they have many things individual European nations don't have, which is the land, resources and population. By combining together, in unity, it would give Europeans a greater presence on the World-Stage shifting the balance of power heavily into Europes favour, opposed to Asia/Russia/America in a way, no individual nation can do on its own.

    3. For pure example, the GDP of the European Union is approx: 18trill, with United States approx: 14trill. With greater unity which removes many of the inherent problems and beaucracy within the current system, and hopefully, with a new system being modelled on Swizterland's government system (I believe the plans revolved around this),

    4. it would create a very democratic and powerful super-state and easily knock the United States off its uncontested pendastal. (Along with others like Russia, etc)

    5. On another note, while you and EMFM are on the same side of the debate, I do believe his argument is completely different to your own.
    1. It is an individualist argument, i accept that.

    2. There are things that can only be usefully achieved at a transnational level; free trade agreements, collective defence alliances such as NATO, and energy security agreements such as the Nabucco pipeline as just a few examples, however a federal government is necessary for none of this.

    3. My problem is that the unacknowledged ambition has been ever greater union with no defined end state (short of full federalisation), and as long as it remains unacknowledged their is no mechanism to have a discussion about what all of us want from the EU. The most heartening positive development so far has been the German supreme court ruling stating the limits of EU involvement in national matters, whereas Britain contribution has been negative (via endless stalling) because all national debate on the aims of the EU has been closed down. Speaking frankly, until we have that debate in Britain I support all foot-dragging achieveable so we have time to decide before the choice is gone and decisions made.

    4. I have no ambition to be part of the post pax-americana, not too do i fear russia.

    5. for my curiousity, would you briefly highlight the difference as you see it?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-25-2009 at 15:16.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Well, your Prime Minister might not have to beg like a faintly embarrassing vassal to be allowed to kiss the ring of his suzerain before being sent back below the salt.

    However, pretending independent sovereignty exists does allow the cherishing of a "special relationship" despite the preference of said overlord to meet with people that count, like the Chinese and Russians. I like to think of it as a "precious" thrown to the useful idiots as Britain's voice grows ever weaker.
    i personally see that as a flaw in Brown rather than Britian, resulting from his catastrophic lack of domestic popularity demanding a foreign policy beauty parade to bring home as a trophy.

    well i disagree, given that i hold to the idea of common aims and objectives resulting from shared social and cultural history. america 'tends' to have similar objectives to those that i percieve as good for britain, thus they are the best vehicle to achieve those aims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I cringe every time that "special relation" is brought up and how Britain is USA's lapdog. With it's current strength, Britain would have a big say in a federal Europe to get things in its favour, in a rather Maggie T style, compared to further down the road where we would begging.
    Britain is declining, so we need outside vehicles to help us achieve our strategic needs. This can be either America or the EU, both have costs associated, it comes down to a judgement on how you value the costs involved from either vehicle, so i see no problems "down the road".
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  28. #538
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    And yet you will never leave because as I already said your locked into making sure Continental European integration never happens unless your in it.

    The dream of people like yourself died the day the European Coal and Steel Community was thought up from that moment on Britain had to be in Europe.

    Britain's ability to meddle in continental affairs had ended with the rapprochement between France and Germany no longer did you have the ability to play France off Germany or vice versa.

    You overestimate EU interference I would like to point out your politicians are at the meetings where these things are thought up and Britain had her veto if they really were that important they would have exercised it no question.

    Also Britain's bent towards services mean that the EU allows it to provide services anywhere in the EU without having to worry with all the old obstacles that used be in place to protect local services.

    Britain does very well out of the EU but most of it is indirect benefit and not measured in a 19 century way in terms of how many ship's, coal and steel meaning it is impossible to relate to but very easy to knock for political gain.

    Politicians are always knocking elites here at home the cry is "Look what there doing up in Dublin" etc etc thats because our politicians are more rooted in the area they come from in Ireland we effectively run a tribal system of government with indoor plumbing and electricity.

    In London your politicians are far more removed from there constituients meaning how do they connect with people ta da "Look at what there doing over in Brussels" simple really.

    The EU is a bureaucratic organisation but no more or less than the average council in England as apparently the tabloids are screaming all the time about looney councils banning Santa etc.

    I for one hope Britain never leave because it is only Britain who can advance policies that encourage free trade thereby enriching the whole.

    Too much time is spent by continental politco's trying to legislate for things like food prices and the ability to set up something as simple as your own business a company like Ryanair could never have happened in Ireland without the EU bringing about a marketplace where Ryanair could operate.

    They way I see it John Bull is defending me from a system which would be designed to protect and not grow
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  29. #539
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    5. for my curiousity, would you briefly highlight the difference as you see it?
    Forgive me if I got the wrong impression here, but EMFM just seems to be in many ways, just a pure nationalist "just because". He would need to answer the earlier points so I can get a greater understanding of his side, but in many ways, it looks like he just against it. (just for the sake of it)

    On the otherhand, your argument is more individualistic in the sense of "Look, if we were Belgium, the pro-cons thing would be very well in our favour, I could support it, however, Britain is in a situation where I believe we can benefit more being out of Europe, due to the pro and cons etc".

    The main difference is, I can understand your argument and in many ways I can see your side and being perfectly honest, in many ways, we share a similar position. If a Europe Federation was put on the table and lets say I had to authority to sign it and it had all the terms I agree with, lets say for arguments sake, it was a similar set-up to the Swiss System (most optimistic realist), at worse, the system of the United States (most realist), I could see myself signing it if I believe it is the best solution. I am not bound by the idea of just the nation, I think more the lines of "What is the best for the people/Common good". I see a European Federation might be a short-term "hmm..." like you are yourself, but I think we are different in our outlook of the future, I see a Britain increasingly marginalised and a relic of the past simply sitting on the table due to the past glories of an Empire, days long gone, and from my travels in Europe, I see that we have many things to share with our European cousins and things to learn from them and in many areas, we do have common ground, and it makes sense that we can all work together, identify with eachother, and actually have a chance where we can produce something beautiful.

    However, even though ultimately, I would like to see complete unity of the world as afterall, we are all people, I don't believe that will happen overnight or anytime soon, I believe there are many stages, steps and technological/sociological steps we need to take before we ever get to that point. Also, if some one said about trying to form a one-world under lets say China/North Korea, I will automatically say "no" as you put it, you balance pro's and con's of ideas to see how we can benefit.
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-25-2009 at 14:07.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    interesting, cheers.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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