Europe

[Furunculus]

the yanks are now getting their knickers in a twist over the Conservatives place in the ECR:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...in-Europe.html

Conservative Party facing US pressure over links with far-right parties in Europe
The Conservative Party is facing pressure from the Obama administration over its European policy and links with far-right parties from Latvia and Poland.

Published: 7:00AM BST 21 Oct 2009

William Hague, the Shadow Home Secretary, is to meet the US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, in Washington on Wednesday amid outrage from the American Jewish community about the alleged antisemitic and neo-Nazi views of the Tory's European allies.

There is also concern in the US that David Cameron's Euroscepticism could damage the influence a Conservative government would have over events in the EU.

According to The Guardian newspaper, Mrs Clinton is facing calls from influential Jewish groups to challenge the Conservative Party's decision to enter a European parliament coalition with a Latvian party, some of whose members attend memorials for Latvian units of Hitler's Waffen-SS, and a Polish politician who has questioned the need to apologise for an anti-Jewish pogrom during the second world war.

Mr Cameron has ordered the Tories to leave the mainstream European People's party and form a new Eurosceptic caucus, the European Conservatives and Reformists, with mainly east European rightwingers, including Michal Kaminski, of Poland's Law and Justice party, and Roberts Zile's Latvian party, For Fatherland and Freedom.

"I think Churchill would turn in his grave. It is an insult to the tradition of this great party," George Schwab, president of the New York-based National Committee on American Foreign Policy and a Holocaust survivor from Latvia, told The Guardian.

A Conservative Party spokesman said Mr Hague would discuss Afghanistan, the Middle East, Iran and the Balkans, during the meeting with Mrs Clinton.

The Obama administration wants the British Government, its closest ally in Europe, at the heart of policy-making on the continent alongside Germany and France.

An American official, asked about the consequences for the US and about the far-right links, said: "I do not see any upsides in the new grouping. I can only see downsides. In life it is normally best to do things when they have an upside."

gee, sounds like confirmation of my earlier statement that the US wants a strong federated partner, and wants the UK firmly on the inside to ensure that strong partner is both:
1) strong
2) anglophile
as a friend of america; "tough nuts!"

[Tribesman]

gee, sounds like confirmation of my earlier statement that

...the tories have joined a bunch of fruitcakes

[Beskar]

...the tories have joined a bunch of fruitcakes

Exactly.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Exactly.

Well, so has every other party, including your socialist comrades forming the farthest left-wing grouping in the Parliament. Though to be honest that group consists entirely of fruitcakes...


I like that "populism" is so easily dismissed as a bad thing by so many of the crowd here in Europe especially. Populism, by definition, represents the needs and wants of the ordinary people. Whether I agree with those needs or not is irrelevant, because is that not an important basis for democracy?

[Beskar]

Well, so has every other party, including your socialist comrades forming the farthest left-wing grouping in the Parliament. Though to be honest that group consists entirely of fruitcakes...

Do you know who I voted for in the last election? They actually got 63 seats in the house of commons.

Edit: I hate this forum, it chopped up a massive reply I wrote about the rest of your message. I can't be bothered writing it again, so in short "Political questions presented to the politics are frauds", I did have the evidence and proof, but I am not rewriting. Also pointed to the figures that 5% of those presented were actually informed enough to be answer to answer properly, and 2% of those were well-read and know all the details. They are also leading questions and full of fallacies and complete joke questions like "Are you a racist?" in a live-interview situation.

[Subotan]

I thought populism was more generally defined as "mob rule", when politicians are elected on issues which resonate with the plebians, usually with disastrous results.

[Subotan]

<3 Tribes

[Furunculus]

[edit] double post [/edit]

[Furunculus]

[edit] oops triple post [/edit]

[Furunculus]

even were i to accept that, which i do not, they would be fruitcakes pulling in the same direction as the Cons on europe, which is about the limit of my interest in elected euro MP's from the continent.

[Tribesman]

they would be fruitcakes pulling in the same direction as the Cons on europe

the fruitcakes can't even decide on who is pulling what in which direction.

[Furunculus]

"CONSCIOUS OF THE URGENT NEED TO REFORM THE EU ON THE BASIS OF EUROREALISM, OPENNESS, ACCOUNTABILITY AND DEMOCRACY, IN A WAY THAT RESPECTS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF OUR NATIONS AND CONCENTRATES ON ECONOMIC RECOVERY, GROWTH AND COMPETITIVENESS, THE EUROPEAN CONSERVATIVES AND REFORMISTS GROUP SHARES THE FOLLOWING PRINCIPLES:

1. Free enterprise, free and fair trade and competition, minimal regulation, lower taxation, and small government as the ultimate catalysts for individual freedom and personal and national prosperity.
2. Freedom of the individual, more personal responsibility and greater democratic accountability.
3. Sustainable, clean energy supply with an emphasis on energy security.
4. The importance of the family as the bedrock of society.
5. The sovereign integrity of the nation state, opposition to EU federalism and a renewed respect for true subsidiarity.
6. The overriding value of the transatlantic security relationship in a revitalised NATO, and support for young democracies across Europe.
7. Effectively controlled immigration and an end to abuse of asylum procedures.
8. Efficient and modern public services and sensitivity to the needs of both rural and urban communities.
9. An end to waste and excessive bureaucracy and a commitment to greater transparency and probity in the EU institutions and use of EU funds.
10. Respect and equitable treatment for all EU countries, new and old, large and small."

this is at least a political platform i can respect from within the EU parliament, it has yet to be demonstrated that they can achieve anything in this direction, but it is at least right-wing and anti-federal.

[Louis VI the Fat]

it has yet to be demonstrated that they can achieve anything in this direction, but it is at least right-wing and anti-federal.

...and anti-healthy Transatlantic relations.

The Conservatives can pretend to their electorate that their unfortunate change of policy is really cool, what with taking a though stance against an EU that seeks to undermine Britain's sovereignity.

But now not only Britain's European partners, but the Americans too, are starting to worry that the Tories will weaken British influence. Weaken it in Europe, and in Washington.


You have two recurring themes, Furunculus, of where you want to take Britain: less EU, and more pro-American. It would seem that the two are increasingly at odds, owing to the unfortunate change of course of the Tories.
That is what this is about. About American unease over the Tories and this new alliance of the weird, the bizarre, and the British Conservatives. Washington, in order to maintain the special relationship with the UK, would prefer the Tories to be mature towards Europe. The Conservatives are not the UKIP, they have no business with these parties and sentiments.

There is growing unease in the White House that David Cameron's Euroscepticism could undermine the ability of a Conservative government to influence events in the EU, threatening to weaken Britain in the eyes of the US. Clinton, while anxious not be seen to be interfering in a domestic election, has discussed the issue informally in Europe.
[...]
"I think Churchill would turn in his grave. It is an insult to the tradition of this great party"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...es-us-pressure

An American official, asked about the consequences for the US and about the far-right links, said: "I do not see any upsides in the new grouping. I can only see downsides. In life it is normally best to do things when they have an upside."

Louis Susman, the US ambassador in London, in an interview with the Financial Times, issued what could be interpreted as a warning to the Conservatives not to try to disrupt Europe.

European diplomats said Clinton believed it would be unwise to try to overturn the Lisbon treaty in the unlikely event that it has not been ratified by the time the Tories come to power. She is also understood to believe that it would also be unwise for a Tory government to try to undo earlier EU treaties.

"Hillary Clinton is concerned that the Tories would not take a lead in Europe," one European diplomatic source said. "It is clear that this US administration does not believe that Britain's relations with Europe and the EU are a zero sum game – the wrong-headed idea that if you are close to one you can't be close to the other. The US wants Britain to be fully engaged in the EU – that makes Britain more relevant in US eyes."

That's what Washington is thinking. Pretty close to my position: strenghten Britain, strenghten the EU, cherish the Special Relationship between the UK and the US, and strengthen Transatlantic ties.

So much better for everybody, in Europe, in the UK, and in America, than this immature posturing of the Conservatives. They shouldn't pander to populist sentiment. They should prepare themselves to lead Britain instead.

[Tribesman]

Wow this means you ended up where you started off anfd are now reposting stuff that was already rubbished 25 pages ago.
Full circle.
So

I think the Polish members are those dreadful Kaczyński twins again.
I think the Belgian members are far-right
I think the Latvians are dangerously close to fascism
I think the Dutch are reactionary homophobes

The others seem to be run-of-the-mill rural, conservative, somewhat alarmist but mainstream parties.

Family, God and Fatherland seems to be what they all have in common. Best of luck to the British Conservatives. Remember: in the end, the only thing national parties have in common, is incompatible national narratives and interests. Pan-national national parties don't tend to last very long.

It's what I predicted before the election. Just when they need the EU to counter a major economic crisis, the British are sending more Europhobes to Brussels in an attempt to sideline themselves. The new formation is going to be just another anti-tax party in disguise, and it is going to last just as long as all the others.

Mainstream my foot.

EDIT
'Racist flat earthers' made me laugh. Sorry Furunculus, the Daily Torygraph isn't very convincing.
__________________

Said perfectly without me having to lift a finger to write my own.

[Furunculus]

Wow this means you ended up where you started off anfd are now reposting stuff that was already rubbished 25 pages ago.
Full circle.
So

i really don't see of what great consequence this post is supposed to herald...........?

ECR MEP's are a little exotic.
EPP MEP's are a little exotic.
S&D MEP's are a little exotic.

it least i'm consistant in not wanting a federal union with people i consider too 'exotic'.

[Beskar]

but FPTP guarantees a two party sytem.

No it doesn't.

[Subotan]

but FPTP guarantees a two party sytem.

No it doesn't.

It practically does, and you know it.

[Tribesman]

i really don't see of what great consequence this post is supposed to herald...........?

I know you don't, which is why it is so funny.

[Furunculus]

try explaining.

[Beskar]

It practically does, and you know it.

Not really. Having any majority held government will result in two rival parties or even collection of parties in Coalition government. This is also in a PR system.

However, FPTP has many superior aspects, such as local responsibilities, and those people being accountable by their elected peers, in a PR government, anyone could end up in government from that party.

I dislike party systems in general anyway, PR is making the party system even more powerful as you elect people based on party and not who/what they are on a fundamental level. Preferably, I would even like the cabinet to be elected on an individual level as well.

[Furunculus]

two interesting tidbits:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...president.html

Miliband and Bryant are surprised that the british people and body politic do not wish to support blair for president. they are viewing the matter through the factionalism of european politics, where its always good to have your man in the hot seat for reasons of prestige, without any awareness that people object the the role itself.

The Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, has submitted a report to the European Commission saying his country will not support a high profile candidate who has ambitions to enlarge the role. Once again it is the role that counts, and the problem with who sits in it revolves on how it will affect the role, and the individual himself.

please, ditch blair, and give us some euro-midget.

[Louis VI the Fat]

the yanks are now getting their knickers in a twist over the Conservatives place in the ECR:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...in-Europe.html


gee, sounds like confirmation of my earlier statement that the US wants a strong federated partner, and wants the UK firmly on the inside to ensure that strong partner is both:
1) strong
2) anglophile
as a friend of america; "tough nuts!"

Frankly, I do not think this is a confirmation of your earlier statements. Nor, indeed, of your very enthusiasm for the direction the Conservatives want to move Britain in, which is what this thread started about.

This is instead about America - to which you want to move Britain ever so closely - deploring the direction the British Conservatives have moved in. And worrying about the repercussions this will have for Anglo-American and Euro-American relations.


Edit: Ah, Tribes - now there's a man of efficient phrase.